Author Topic: Core worlds and Wave size  (Read 1245 times)

Offline Elestan

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Core worlds and Wave size
« on: August 07, 2016, 01:50:16 AM »
Does taking core worlds or raiding homeworlds have an outsized impact on wave size, beyond the normal AIP generated?  I just took two core worlds (using Jammers, natch), and the wave size seems to have nearly tripled.  My AIP is at the floor (320) thanks to Spire civvies.  Diff 7/7, one player, no handicaps.

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Core worlds and Wave size
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2016, 02:46:29 AM »
All AIP increases also increase the AIP Floor which obviously makes the waves stronger. The wave sizes also depend heavily on which ships the AI chooses. When you captured the core worlds the AIP increased. And when the AIP increased it's possible that the AI unlocked new ship type which would affect the wave size. And IIRC the AI sends a counter attack for every core guard post destroyed.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 02:54:22 AM by Kahuna »
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Offline Elestan

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Re: Core worlds and Wave size
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2016, 01:03:13 PM »
All AIP increases also increase the AIP Floor which obviously makes the waves stronger. The wave sizes also depend heavily on which ships the AI chooses. When you captured the core worlds the AIP increased. And when the AIP increased it's possible that the AI unlocked new ship type which would affect the wave size. And IIRC the AI sends a counter attack for every core guard post destroyed.

The AIP increase from those systems was minimal (less than 20 added to about 300) because I had the 'spare' AIP reduction, and I was comparing identical ship types (bombers went from around 800/wave to over 2000/wave), and there were no core guard posts hit.

However, I think Toranth may have just posted the answer in another thread:

There is also a "secret" wave size modifier based on how many human systems the AI has Warp Gate access to - if you Gate Raid to reduce access down to just one of your systems, the AI will send larger waves than if it could potentially a dozen or more of your systems.

Taking those two systems significantly decreased my number of exposed systems, and would have triggered this modifier.

A question on this:  Does the AI still maintain the same net ship production rate when it does this (so it's sending larger but less-frequent waves), or does it just get a bunch of bonus ships added to the waves?  I would hope that it's the former, because the latter seems like it would just be making good strategic play pointless by punishing the player for it.

And another thought:  I have CPWs turned on, so the warp gate "access" to my systems is irrelevant anyway; what matters is the total number of system connections the threatfleet can reach.  I wonder if this wave size modifier rule takes that into account.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 01:10:15 PM by Elestan »

Offline Toranth

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Re: Core worlds and Wave size
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2016, 06:06:41 PM »
A question on this:  Does the AI still maintain the same net ship production rate when it does this (so it's sending larger but less-frequent waves), or does it just get a bunch of bonus ships added to the waves?  I would hope that it's the former, because the latter seems like it would just be making good strategic play pointless by punishing the player for it.

And another thought:  I have CPWs turned on, so the warp gate "access" to my systems is irrelevant anyway; what matters is the total number of system connections the threatfleet can reach.  I wonder if this wave size modifier rule takes that into account.
If I remember the explanation as given, what the modifier does is increase the size endpoints of the wave, but not the rate it charges at?  So yes, it sends larger but less frequent waves.  With one entry point, the modifier is x2, and it goes down to 0.8 at somewhere around 5 entry points (don't remember exactly).  Normal x1 is 4 entry points.
I have no idea how Cross Planet Waves plays into this, however.  I assume it works exactly like normal waves, though, just appearing in AI territory, but I don't remember ever checking.

Remember that waves always have a certain amount of randomness in their sizes, and this becomes more significant as AIP goes up.  800->2000 seems a bit larger than normal for a mere 20 pint AIP jump when you're already at 300, but not impossible for a min-wave vs a max-wave.

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Core worlds and Wave size
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2016, 01:26:33 PM »
Interesting. However, I guess that "concentrated" waves mechanism was relevant when turrets had galactic cap. With a per-planet cap, that mechanism might be less balanced. But with the energy limitation and the large frontier to defend with mobile fleet, maybe that's still ok.
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Offline tadrinth

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Re: Core worlds and Wave size
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2016, 06:04:36 PM »
The 'save up for bigger waves if few targets' logic is intended to compensate for the degree to which you can fortify a single whipping boy system with things like mines, fortresses, Zenith Trader goodies, Spire Cities, and the Mod Forts rewarded from nebulas. 

Personally, I still go for a single whipping boy (usually my homeworld because MOAR SALVAGE), but that rule is definitely punishing me for doing so, and that's entirely fair.  I think if there's only a single wave target the multiplier goes all the way up to 3x normal, now (it was 2x but that wasn't enough).

Really sucks getting waves that rarely, though, because you don't get feedback as often on how much the AIP increases are boosting the wave sizes. 

Also, that mechanic could certainly be a heck of a lot more clear to the player.

Offline Elestan

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Re: Core worlds and Wave size
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2016, 09:46:45 PM »
The 'save up for bigger waves if few targets' logic is intended to compensate for the degree to which you can fortify a single whipping boy system with things like mines, fortresses, Zenith Trader goodies, Spire Cities, and the Mod Forts rewarded from nebulas.

Yes, but I kind of wonder why the AI couldn't just use the strength of the target system as its guide for how long to build up a wave.  It seems like that would serve the same purpose in a more straightforward way.

Quote
Also, that mechanic could certainly be a heck of a lot more clear to the player.

Definitely.

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Core worlds and Wave size
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2016, 01:48:09 AM »
Quote
Also, that mechanic could certainly be a heck of a lot more clear to the player.
Definitely.
Like some many other mechanisms. I'm currently struggling with threat/threatfleet behavior for the wiki.
 ;)
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