Author Topic: The AI 9 through 10 run  (Read 40685 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2012, 11:04:01 AM »
I'm not so much looking to nerf k-raiding as I am to make sure it doesn't get boring.  One way is to nerf it so hard that you don't do it unless you absolutely have to, but closing off strategies like that isn't good for the fun of the game.  So something like surges or making it go more and more nuts the more k you've raided, etc.  Making the AI do something unexpected would be fun, I think.  The one thing it can't do is raise AIP: the whole point of k-raiding is to make it so even if you're totally stuck you can squeeze out a bit more K without AIP gain.

The difficulty from a design standpoint is that it's intended for players who are on the ropes to have a chance to get back in the game, but it can also be used by players who have a good handle on the game to get their midgame K to build up to a lategame fleet without getting up to mid/late AIP.  The hard part is having the game recognize the difference between the two... I think "total amount of k already raided" is probably the best metric to go on for that, thanks for that suggestion :)

All that said, I wonder if the author thinks this is all rather an overreaction ;)  Just because he pulls something off doesn't mean it needs to be changed.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2012, 11:21:05 AM »
I think GUDare hasn't met a challenge he didn't like.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2012, 11:31:45 AM »
I think GUDare hasn't met a challenge he didn't like.
I could have it randomly trigger an exo composed entirely of Raid Starships.  That might push the "didn't like" line ;)
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Offline Solarity

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Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2012, 11:36:04 AM »
Maybe because the k-raiding process means that you have to have your computer and and ai computer linked together the AI can play tricks with your buildings, maybe make reactors go into low power, or shields fluctuate, defense go off line / shoot each other?

Offline TechSY730

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Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2012, 11:38:14 AM »
Maybe because the k-raiding process means that you have to have your computer and and ai computer linked together the AI can play tricks with your buildings, maybe make reactors go into low power, or shields fluctuate, defense go off line / shoot each other?

That seems more appropriate for the SuperTerminal.
After all, if you are using your systems to hack the AI, why couldn't the AI go the other way around and try to hack you back while you are still connected?

Offline TechSY730

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Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2012, 11:41:41 AM »
I have to agree though. Even on difficulty 8 with highish AIP, the response to knowledge raids has usually been easy to deal with.

Perhaps a variant of the bursting mechanic for superterminal could be used. Instead of the strength varying with AIP reduction and AIP, it could increase with total knowledge collected.

In fact, the non-burst waves should scale with total knowledge collected, just like the non-burst waves of the superterminal scale with AIP reduction. The more you abuse it, the more harsh the AI gets with its response.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2012, 11:58:35 AM »
Knowledge raiding discussion moved here so GUDare can continue abusing the AI.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2012, 12:09:38 PM »
All that said, I wonder if the author thinks this is all rather an overreaction ;)  Just because he pulls something off doesn't mean it needs to be changed.

In this case, I'm not sure.  If you push K-Raiding up to the impossible level, anyone on the ropes literally couldn't survive to have their fleet off doing a K-Raid in the first place.  As to K earned is difficulty, there's very easy work arounds to that too.  Don't research your real worlds until you've hit your K-Raid Spokes worlds, and gone after them when things are low.  There's a balance to be sure but that I'm not sure is it.  You'd almost have to have a K-Raid counter independent of the K Counter, as mentioned.

Yes, I'm abusing the mechanic to keep AIP down.  Yes, it's slow (and boring).  Slow enough I'm probably going to try 2xResearch IIIs the next time I do it. It's 20 minutes with my fleet parked this way, and that time can be expensive pricewise.  Then again, so is taking forever to kill off four wormhole guardposts.  Methodical is not necessarily bad.  Having to do it over and over as repetitive is almost the same as having to sit on guardposts.  Some things are just boring, until you make that *1* mistake.   Then you're in for it.

Besides, it gives me time to write up AARs.  ;)

Making the mechanic interesting could be fun, but I'm not sure how to do that without invalidating the mechanic.  That said, there is one way you could make sure that K-Raiding was dangerous.  Spawn the zombie revolution at random OTHER cmd stations so you're dealing with free-floating threat of a rediculous volume instead of an easily controlled point of entry.

Which means every K-Raid right now would give me a 3k-4k CPA, or possibly worse.  Okay, that's a little much.  You see my concern.

I'm more than happy to discuss making K-Raiding interesting.  I don't want to see a strategy that trades time for K though ruined unless it breaks AI 10/10.

RE: Wiseguy...: If you start sending me exos of Raid starships, I'll stop whining about the Spider's bonuses. ;)  That right there is just some evil though!

Regarding the CPA: No, I didn't have to pull back, but I had to wreck my 650 ship fleet twice and use fortresses as power points to make sure they'd hold on the outside of the cutoff system.  I also blunted the power of it so it was about an 800 ship CPA when they had a chance to gather on the edge.  The CPA cost me 30 minutes, at least.

Co-Processor on Macross: The regular researchers needs supply.  You can't put anything up (research, turrets, etc) on a on a Co-P planet and have it function.

SuperTerminal Galaxy Hack: This makes a LOT more sense to me and is probably one way to ease reliance on the SuperTerminal without nerfing its actual use.

And I'll go pop into the other thread eventually.
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2012, 10:49:37 PM »
I finally got down to Earth.  I included Eridani's planet list because I found it funny.



That's SOME ugly.  Raid Engine x2?  I'm not even sure what to SAY to that, nevermind do about it.  I'm gonna have to think on that one.  If I could trigger them in a stagger of some kind I might be able to handle it, but... WOW.

Oh, yeah, and the Co-Processor in there is just ADORABLE.  Thanks RNG.  Grouchy grouchy grump grump.

10 AIP suddenly became VERY important.
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2012, 11:58:38 PM »
Well, I'm currently rebuilding.  Ugh.  The last hour has been clearances and raids.  I had to free the dyson, it'd popped enough of the Mk IV world I got concerned.  20 more AIP.  I also raided deep to the east, popping 3 Data Centers.  Taking Llama, a Mk IV world with 300 units and Ceasar with 500 wrecked out my fleet, so I retreated.  I also cleared the fortress off Blackjack.

Once done, I decided I need to get that Co-Processor off Earth.  I'm going to be forced to raid it.  I try.  Ummmm... a sec.

In the meanwhile, the AI's been being cute by buying stuff like black hole generators and replacing ion cannons.  My fleet deals with that annoyance in Cyborg while the Raids make their way down towards Earth.

I sit the fleet on the wormhole towards Earth in the Cyborg system, figuring if they can take the raids as they come inbound I'll be alright, right?  Riiiiight.



I'm getting little waves (500 + 200) of Mk IIs at the whipping boy, and they're holding strong, particularly since they got a rebel revolt.  I know I can fall back if I have to, but we're going to try this.

A few things happened I hadn't realized I was going to trigger. 
1) I sucked about 50 core ships each off both Kirk and Earth.  Mk V Guardians with the wave didn't help (not yet). 
2) The raids didn't stagger in travel as much as I'd expected.

I shouldn't have tried to defend in Cyborg.  I actually have an Ion V on Kerensky that I'd captured when I took the world (I scrapped the dual Is that were on it).  I also have a fortress and bonuses.  I lost dang near most of my fleet.  I retreated with 300 ships.  They sent in a small chase squad behind me who got eaten up and about 150 more Mk IV/V ships are hanging off the wormhole.  So, in the last hour I cleared some pretty heavy Mk IV systems and got my AIP down, but I need to take those Co-Processors all the way down so I can whipping boy on Kirk.  I won't survive the setup against Dual Raids if I don't.

However, this has some possibilities.  Deep striking at the coreworld isn't necessarily a wise plan due to roaming threat but I'm still hard-choke pointed at Kerensky with a fallback at Twycross.  If I keep draining off troops from Earth and Kirk I might be able to get myself into Kirk and up and running before serious issues occur.  I kind of wish CSGs were off right now.  I've still got As, Bs, and Ds to clear.  If they were I'd raid the raid engines. ;)

However, if I can eventually pop all the Co-Processors, I'll get myself down to ~97 AIP when I setup the whipping boy against the homeworld.  If I'm VERY specific about my next hits, I only need 60 AIP to pop all the CSGs, leaving me around 160.  I intend to take Liao's Fact IV for the B-Class (Canopus has one too but I need to be able to deeper strike into the eastern arm) and I'm hoping to find a D-Class enroute to Riker.  I haven't decided if I'm going to take Eridani or not yet.  I might free-float the whipping boy on Kirk for a while to keep the silliness at a reasonable level.  The problem is I'll need my fleet... which is cause for concern.  Last time I couldn't hold Kirk without the fleet, and that was against *1* Raid Engine.  I might have to make due with a partial fleet for a while.

Oh, and one side note.  I haven't got my Maws to MK III yet.  I meant to and then didn't, getting distracted by other things.

This is some serious ugly.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTT!!!!

(Thank god for K-Raids)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 01:11:03 AM by GUDare »
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2012, 12:21:20 AM »
Um, errr. Homeworlds can have AI Eyes?  I just noticed that lovely minor factoid about Earth.
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2012, 01:03:03 AM »
So, rebuild, Re-Raid, I get it with the last Raid Starship Mk I that I own.  I deal with the next assault in Kerensky and that goes much better.  About 450 ships won't commit from Cyborg, so after the rebuild I head in and clear them, and rebuild again.

Econ is ~1.8k/second right now.  Good enough to allow rebuilds, but a full abuse takes time.

After the rebuild I float the fleet up to Macross while my Raid Starships go out and pound down the two Co-Ps out in the galaxy.  Once they're done I pop the one on Macross, and prepare another K-Raid.

My current AIP and what waves look like:


There's a +1 (I'm at 80) from time at the moment.

The K-Raid goes off mostly without a hitch but I was losing a little ground.  I forgot to drop a Grav turret on them to shut the blade spawners down.  After that we're good to go.  On my way back to Kerensky I chased about 100 ships in from Craps. They died to the rebuilding units, fortress, and Ion V rather easily.

I'm tired so I'm gonna call it a night at this point.  I'm literally stuck between two decisions.  I can either go take out Ceasar and open myself up 15000 in K between Dyson, Caesar, and 3 K-Raids.  However, that's 20 AIP.  I can also start raiding out Kirk from range, and dealing with the lowered AIP for Raid Engine Defenses until I can get Kirk nerfed so I can get in there when I bring the full fleet down to deal with wave 1 as I prep to move the whipping boy.  But, 15000 K will get me my Mil III station and Maw IIIs, which I'm pretty sure I'm going to need.  Especially if I go get 20 more AIP and eat around 3-4 time AIP increases as well.

I'd also like to deep strike the living daylights out of the Riker arm and find out what's down there.  I've got no more AIP reducers left on the field within my scouting vision (though 200 is a lot).  I'm probably going to need one or two more to hold things afloat against two raid engines, but I'd also like to find out what I'm dealing with over at Riker.

See, I'm thinking I have one other option then fighting with Earth like this.  It's take out Riker and speed slam Earth before the 400 AIP raids that'll happen can reach the homeworld.  But I need to know what I'm fighting against down there and at the least I need to pop all the Tachyon Guardposts to get the scouts in.  That's a pretty significant Deep Strike.  I could just shove my foot down their throats and save scum once I know, but that seems unsporting. 

However, Earth is a bit nasty at the moment.  Between the Eye and a Fortress III next to the cmd station with two FFs covering it in range of the wormhole, I don't know if I'll have enough left TO speed-slam Earth.  It's a conundrum.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 01:05:30 AM by GUDare »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2012, 09:43:39 AM »
Quote
Um, errr. Homeworlds can have AI Eyes?  I just noticed that lovely minor factoid about Earth.
Um.  Ouch.  I had no idea.  Chris probably intended that, but I'm not sure how great having one of those on a HW is ;)  2 core raids is one thing, slapping you down for bringing in a large fleet is another.  It'd be something else if the AI Eye weren't invincible as long as the guard posts were up (on homeworlds), though.  But an exception like that would be a bug report waiting to happen.  Will consider.

In general, a fascinating conundrum :)  The actual AI attacks (at least the waves) aren't being much of a challenge to thorough defense, but the overall situation is still highly non-obvious in how to win.  Basically it's more you versus the map generator than you versus the AI, sometimes ;)
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Offline zoutzakje

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Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2012, 11:28:15 AM »
yeah having AI eyes on homeworlds is possible. Have had it a couple of times myself. Luckily I had an artiller golem which could snipe it out most of the times.
Having a co-processor on a homeworld is just really bad luck lol :D The whole purpose of co-p's is to lower the AIP, so you can win the game more easily. Having to kill a homeworld before you're able to reduce the AIP seems kind of silly to me lol. Imagine if there would be a co-p on both of the homeworlds. Would be hilarious :D
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: The AI 9 through 10 run
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2012, 01:10:55 PM »
In general, a fascinating conundrum :)  The actual AI attacks (at least the waves) aren't being much of a challenge to thorough defense, but the overall situation is still highly non-obvious in how to win.  Basically it's more you versus the map generator than you versus the AI, sometimes ;)
Heh, the Waves are a little ignorable compared to the output of two Core Engines, so the fact that I'm actually fighting that, not waves, is really making the difference to the AI's attempts to annoy me.

This particular seed is definately mapgen controlled for strategy and tactics.  The AI isn't really involved (though I might turn off Zenith Traders, they're more annoying then helpful) because if I get AIP up to the point where we're actually at war, Earth eats me.
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