Arcen Games
General Category => AI War Classic => AI War Classic - After Action Reports => Topic started by: Faulty Logic on September 12, 2012, 10:54:06 pm
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Trying the fortress king, and seeing if the SF captain now deserves its hard status. 10/10 for maximum fun.
Goal: see if the .2 homeworld increase from a champion makes FS impossible. If not, apply 3 spire dreadnaughts (and the rest) to the AI's face. And, as always, to cause a bug report.
Simple 80 planets, don't have the seed this time, Z mirrors are my starting ship. Normal and champion.
Minor factions:
marauders 6
resistance 4
rebellions 6
Z traders
Z dyson sphere 4
broken golems 4
spirecraft moderate
Fallen Spire 4
Complete visiblity, Schizophrenic, Avengers, Hybrids 4 and 4, advanced hybrids 7 and 0, no CSGs. This is more of a fun-oriented game. I will end up taking all the planets which would have CSGs anyway.
Unlock fighters mkII, build fighters I-II and riot Is to repel the first waves. Once I have my mkI fleet and riots, I send the champion in normal transports to do two nebulae. After completing the Epsilon Eridani Remnant and the Shattered Pillar vs. Astids and DS, I use my new destroyer to raid for reptite rams to destroy a mod fort command station, and pysite for jumpships to raid two dcs.
I then take a planet with a hive golem (these are awesome.) and an ARS (bulletproofs. We meet again.).
I use the jumpships to do three more nebulae, achieving cruiser size. They were grey spire vs gatlings (23 gatlings reclaimed, saving them), the neinzul mourners, and the pillar vs citadel.
I have the refugee outpost built by the time of the first cpa. 2700 mkII fleetships are unceremoniously swarmed and overwhelmed by 500 wasps. Hive golems rule.
I recover the first city shard, take three planets, and build the first spire city. AI response has been containable thus far, though I don't think I could do it without golem support at this difficulty (with a champion, without resorting to warheads).
Before my economy can actually build the first hub, the first golem exo arrives: HK mkI and a couple hundred escorts.
Unceremoniously swarmed and overwhelmed.
By now the hybrids have thoroughly entrenched my three border worlds. I spend most of the next two hours building up my spire city/fleet, fortifying my chokepoint, cleansing hybrids cheaply (ie with the champion), and dealing with a super hybrid plot (one reptite ram under cloak kills it quite neatly).
I have unlocked fighters II, harvesters III, Zenith and Spire SSs I, engi IIs, forcefield IIs, and hbc, missile, basic, laser, and mlrs turrets II, as well as grav turrets I. Most of this, along with the neinzul and zenith modular forts, is on my chokepoint.
I recover the second city shard with no issue.
cpa2 has 5000 ships, and requires tactics. Grumble. Specifically, riot-tractoring into the chop-shop. Which is really hard to pull off, because the enemy has Z siege engines. This is a nightmare when dealing with a theatball, or worse, a special forces staging ground. Quintuple champion shields still allow the tactic, as does sending the riots and champion in a transport, so they waste their shot.
Rebel colony declared in an extremely inconvienient location. However, they are there, and that makes me happy after their multi-game hiatus.
Build the second city. I will need to take the surrounding systems to expand it.
As I am rebuilding from the city-hub-placement spawn, the third cpa is announced, and it will bring 7000 ships to the party. At the same time as a normal FS exo. 4500 of those end up as mkIII instead of mkII.
It was tricky. Hive golems are awesome.
Other thoughts:
What happened to waves? I updated to 5.079 and the waves are about an order of magnitude (literally) smaller.
Z siege engines are brutal in the hands of the AI.
Fleetships, even only mkI, are not to be underestimated.
Drones are fun.
The fortress king shreds basically everything.
State of empire: P6 means "will put spire city here" P4s will be taken for other reasons.
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Biggest things I notice when fighting special forces captain is
1) If you stay on any special forces protected world and don't micro it, the pain train derails you
2) The high number of special forces posts eats away on at aip...especially so when you play higher difficulty low aip games.
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1) Oh yes they do. Especially when they show up with 50 Z seige engines. Ow.
2) That would be annoying, but this will not be a low AIP game.
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Entertaining :)
What happened to waves? I updated to 5.079 and the waves are about an order of magnitude (literally) smaller.
Odd, shouldn't be that way. Should actually be a bit bigger because it isn't applying the 0.9 multiplier for mkII waves. Wave-calc logs (preferably including some entries from before the magnitude drop, even if from another game)?
The fortress king shreds basically everything.
Yes indeedy, multipurpose ginsu knife to the face. It's a good way to visualize what AI normal-forts would be like without their penalty-vs-polycrystal.
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Yes indeedy, multipurpose ginsu knife to the face. It's a good way to visualize what AI normal-forts would be like without their penalty-vs-polycrystal.
More like trencher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ditch_Witch_HT330_Track_Trencher_Stationary.jpg) to the face.
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Yes indeedy, multipurpose ginsu knife to the face. It's a good way to visualize what AI normal-forts would be like without their penalty-vs-polycrystal.
More like trencher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ditch_Witch_HT330_Track_Trencher_Stationary.jpg) to the face.
Trucks? We don't build trucks. We build chainsaws, and put engines on them.
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The fortress king shreds basically everything.
Yes indeedy, multipurpose ginsu knife to the face. It's a good way to visualize what AI normal-forts would be like without their penalty-vs-polycrystal.
Solution: RAMMING SPEED!
Odd, shouldn't be that way. Should actually be a bit bigger because it isn't applying the 0.9 multiplier for mkII waves. Wave-calc logs (preferably including some entries from before the magnitude drop, even if from another game)?
How does one acquire these mythical wave-calculation logs?
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Solution: RAMMING SPEED!
Well done, D-Day.
Odd, shouldn't be that way. Should actually be a bit bigger because it isn't applying the 0.9 multiplier for mkII waves. Wave-calc logs (preferably including some entries from before the magnitude drop, even if from another game)?
How does one acquire these mythical wave-calculation logs?
Oh, I thought I'd gotten some from you before.
1) Settings window -> Advanced tab -> check the Advanced Logging toggle
2) Play
3) When a wave is announced (not actually launched) it adds an entry in AIThreadWaveComputationLog.txt and a couple entries (before and after the handoff to the AI thread) to MainThreadWaveComputationLog.txt, both in your RuntimeData directory. So just grab those when you're done.
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Thanks, I will have those attached to the next update.
Edit: turns out I always play with advanced logging, so I have these here.
From the Peacemaker/Sledgehammer game:
9/5/2012 2:35:08 AM (5.078)
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Starting CreateMixedWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 10:43:10 ; Player.AIType: Peacemaker ; Player.AIDifficulty: 10 ; AIProgressionLevel: 112 ; AITechLevel: 5
WaveSize = MultiplierFromWaveInterval * MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetAndChampionCount: 2 * 1.07 = 2.13
aiTypeBasedAIPIncrement : 0
since difficulty >= 8, effectiveAIP = floor( ( AIProgressionLevel * 0.8 ) ^ 1.1 ) : 140
workingShips = ( effectiveAIP * player.AIDifficulty ) / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) : 466.67
workingShips *= FInt.FromParts( 0, AILoop.Instance.AIRandom.Next( 800, 1100 ) ) : 464.73
workingShips = Max(workingShips,34 * handicap_multiplier) :464.73
Inside AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, multiplier: 1
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, workingShips :464.73
numberShips = workingShips.IntValue :464
9/5/2012 2:51:03 AM (5.078)
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Starting CreateHomogenousWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 10:47:13 ; Player.AIType: Sledge_Hammer ; Player.AIDifficulty: 10 ; AIProgressionLevel: 128 ; AITechLevel: 2
WaveSize = MultiplierFromWaveInterval * MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetAndChampionCount: 2.11 * 1.2 = 2.54
aiTypeBasedAIPIncrement : 30
since difficulty >= 8, effectiveAIP = floor( ( AIProgressionLevel * 0.8 ) ^ 1.1 ) : 205
workingShips = ( effectiveAIP * player.AIDifficulty ) / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) : 683.33
workingShips *= FInt.FromParts( 0, AILoop.Instance.AIRandom.Next( 800, 1100 ) ) : 688
workingShips = Max(workingShips,34 * handicap_multiplier) :688
Inside AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, multiplier: 1
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, workingShips :688
numberShips = workingShips.IntValue :688
numberTech123 = numberShips - numberExplosive - numberCore :688
From the current game:
9/12/2012 11:30:48 AM (5.079)
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Starting CreateMixedWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 7:11:04 ; Player.AIType: FortressKing ; Player.AIDifficulty: 10 ; AIProgressionLevel: 34 ; AITechLevel: 2
WaveSize = MultiplierFromWaveInterval * MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetAndChampionCount: 2.41 * 1.2 = 2.9
aiTypeBasedAIPIncrement : 0
since difficulty >= 8, effectiveAIP = floor( ( AIProgressionLevel * 0.8 ) ^ 1.1 ) : 37
workingShips = ( effectiveAIP * player.AIDifficulty ) / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) : 123.33
workingShips *= FInt.FromParts( 0, AILoop.Instance.AIRandom.Next( 800, 1100 ) ) : 128.99
workingShips = Max(workingShips,34 * handicap_multiplier) :128.99
Inside AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, multiplier: 1
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, workingShips :128.99
numberShips = workingShips.IntValue :128
numberTech123 = numberShips - numberDefensive - numberExplosive - numberCore :128
9/12/2012 12:00:29 PM (5.079)
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Starting CreateHomogenousWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 7:36:09 ; Player.AIType: Special_Forces_Captain ; Player.AIDifficulty: 10 ; AIProgressionLevel: 34 ; AITechLevel: 2
WaveSize = MultiplierFromWaveInterval * MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetAndChampionCount: 2.68 * 1.2 = 3.22
aiTypeBasedAIPIncrement : 0
since difficulty >= 8, effectiveAIP = floor( ( AIProgressionLevel * 0.8 ) ^ 1.1 ) : 37
workingShips = ( effectiveAIP * player.AIDifficulty ) / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) : 123.33
workingShips *= FInt.FromParts( 0, AILoop.Instance.AIRandom.Next( 800, 1100 ) ) : 118.27
workingShips = Max(workingShips,34 * handicap_multiplier) :118.27
Inside AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, multiplier: 1
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, workingShips :118.27
numberShips = workingShips.IntValue :118
numberTech123 = numberShips - numberExplosive - numberCore :118
Hmm. the numberShips term does not appear to be the actual number of ships. I had waves of thousands in my last game. Also, these calc-logs are about what you would expect given the 34:128 AIPs. Is there another point at which the number of ships is modified? I can get saves if that would help.
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Update: game lost.
10000 ship cpa (with mostly mkIII-IV ships)+golem exo+3 city FS exo+ 4000 ship bomber wave= dead player. Some exo-group got in and destroyed one of my ZPGs, and the energy brownout was the last nail in the coffin.
I will try again on a new map, and hopefully the AI won't have Z siege engines. Which I now hate more than eyebots. They murdered even a 2-city FS fleet with champion in a couple of volleys. With a normal threatball. And the SF captain had groups of hundreds of the things.
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Update: game lost.
Woot! ;)
10000 ship cpa
Yea, I was kinda counting on these guys to carry the ball downfield, supported by whatever other craziness happened to be going on at the time.
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Tackle Drones > Siege Engines maybe?
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Siege engines have tractor immunity.
Update: game lost.
Woot! ;)
10000 ship cpa
Yea, I was kinda counting on these guys to carry the ball downfield, supported by whatever other craziness happened to be going on at the time.
Why are you always happy when we lose?
Things didn't really go wrong until the AI spawned a warp gate guardian on a gate-raided planet, enabling an exo group to spawn behind my massive chokepoind, popping a ZPG, disabling the forcefields of said massive chokepoint... You know, this belongs in the "this AI is awesome" thread.
I still don't know if the champion makes FS impossible (for 10/10). I now strongly suspect it does. Or at least makes it much harder than it should. Will try again, possibly with different AIs.
Special Forces Captain now deserves its "hard" status.
Fortress king would have been really unpleasant without spirecraft.
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Why are you always happy when we lose?
Generally it means I've done my job :)
Or made a bug unleashing a dark-spire-zombie-apocalypse upon the galaxy, but either way it's entertaining.
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Why are you always happy when we lose?
Generally it means I've done my job :)
Or made a bug unleashing a dark-spire-zombie-apocalypse upon the galaxy, but either way it's entertaining.
Then keep up the good work. 10/10 is still winnable.
Glad you're feeling better, if only because I want more AIWar stuff (also some requisite-empathy-for-sick-people, but mainly...).
What is your stance on the AI Homeworlds? And the possible buffing thereof?
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I will try again on a new map, and hopefully the AI won't have Z siege engines. Which I now hate more than eyebots. They murdered even a 2-city FS fleet with champion in a couple of volleys. With a normal threatball. And the SF captain had groups of hundreds of the things.
Hate as in annoying to deal with (like eyebots), or hate as in they are so OP you can pretty much give up if you are facing a properly managed group of them (that is, if they are OP)?
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What is your stance on the AI Homeworlds? And the possible buffing thereof?
Still meaning to get there, just need to finally get the last of the Ancient Shadows content done before I can focus AIW time on more general issues.
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Hate as in annoying to deal with (like eyebots), or hate as in they are so OP you can pretty much give up if you are facing a properly managed group of them (that is, if they are OP)?
Both: because they let the AI stand up to (indeed, completely obliterate) FS fleets, and demand micro to be dealt with. They also interact very poorly with existing micro-reducing measures (attack-move, FRD) when in human hands, and cause stagnation like nothing else (the spec forces blob killed my entire fleet in a couple volleys).
These need a nerf, but not a huge one. I experienced a fringe case (SF Captain, doom) but the presence of these ships were a vast obstacle to my expansion throughout the 13-hour game, and were a big factor in my defeat.
All that said, I like the new tactics they require. I just hate their guts.
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What type of nerf would have made them bearable? Health? Damage? Range? Speed? Multipliers? Reload?
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Health. They are ridiculously durable for artillery units. If I could take a few of them with me with a cap of fighters or a champion, it wouldn't have been nearly as bad.
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Zenith sieges would be in similar boat that bombards in AI hands. They are large low cap units that are balanced for player with strict cap which AI can ignore completely.
And for sieges it's the additional sticker on a hull: "I kill champions(and other heavy stuff)". It makes it more.. annoying than bombards probably.
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And for sieges it's the additional sticker on a hull: "I kill champions(and other heavy stuff)". It makes it more.. annoying than bombards probably.
"We took murder and stuck an engine on it".
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Zenith sieges would be in similar boat that bombards in AI hands. They are large low cap units that are balanced for player with strict cap which AI can ignore completely.
And for sieges it's the additional sticker on a hull: "I kill champions(and other heavy stuff)". It makes it more.. annoying than bombards probably.
Sigh...
Once again, it needs to be said, the AI does not completley ignore ship caps. The AI will get less ship of a low ship cap per reinforce/wave/whatever than they would of gotten if they chose a normal ship cap ship, based on the ratios of ship caps.
It is important to note this is impacts how many ships the AI gets of a type; the game does not force the AI to keep their current counts consistent with the ship cap ratios.
For example, the AI is free to pick to reinforce with Seige Engines 20 times in a row. However, they would get only 1/4 as many as if they chose, say, fighters 20 times in a row. (or is the Seige engine's cap 1/8 of normal? If so, it would be 1/8 as many Seige engines)
So yes, the AI can somewhat ignore ship caps, but not completley.
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Siege Engines have a cap of 8, fighters are 96 so 1/12th.
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Zenith sieges would be in similar boat that bombards in AI hands. They are large low cap units that are balanced for player with strict cap which AI can ignore completely.
And for sieges it's the additional sticker on a hull: "I kill champions(and other heavy stuff)". It makes it more.. annoying than bombards probably.
Sigh...
Once again, it needs to be said, the AI does not completley ignore ship caps. The AI will get less ship of a low ship cap per reinforce/wave/whatever than they would of gotten if they chose a normal ship cap ship, based on the ratios of ship caps.
It is important to note this is impacts how many ships the AI gets of a type; the game does not force the AI to keep their current counts consistent with the ship cap ratios.
For example, the AI is free to pick to reinforce with Seige Engines 20 times in a row. However, they would get only 1/4 as many as if they chose, say, fighters 20 times in a row. (or is the Seige engine's cap 1/8 of normal? If so, it would be 1/8 as many Seige engines)
So yes, the AI can somewhat ignore ship caps, but not completley.
Actually, there are places where the AI will completely ignore ship caps. Hybrid drones is the example that comes to mind right away. I don't think Special Forces take caps directly into account, but rather only use the 'strength' value of a ship when spawning. That might explain why there were so many ZSieges.
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Actually, there are places where the AI will completely ignore ship caps. Hybrid drones is the example that comes to mind right away.
That's not exactly true; the hybrids have a much smaller chance of picking the really-small-cap ships like sieges, though I had to correct some omissions to that logic a day or so ago.
I don't think Special Forces take caps directly into account, but rather only use the 'strength' value of a ship when spawning.
For most ships that have caps, "strength" is based directly on the cap, so SF does take caps directly into account.