Author Topic: Rematch - Keith's Revenge  (Read 9637 times)

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2012, 09:52:11 PM »
Oops, unintentional consequences :)  Rebuilders will work outside supply in 5.039; having thought about it I can't think of any really cheesy exploits from allowing it (given that getting supply isn't all that hard if you really want it, and that most rebuildable stuff needs supply to function).  If it proves exploitable, I may need to look into alternatives.
Heh, neat.  Thanks. :)

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This is nuts.  I need to completely rethink my strategy.  MOAR is kicking my arse.
It's not all that moar.  But the wave-time thing is pretty brutal in the econ-spiral sense: previously you just had to hold on until it tossed you a few softballs out of sheer random chance, and you could rebuild a bit.

I'm forced to disagree.  The extra oomph the waves get (due to a higher max-time) is also part of it, coupled with me having to pound a couple of extra warp gates than I normally do at this level + exponential increase.  So, yeah, MOAR may be the wrong term, but it's what I've got at the moment. :)

I'm still on pause on this for now.  Probably a day or two.  I needz ta thinks.  My usual GoTo is Raid SSs, which are getting flatlined as an option between the Peacemaker and the Economy combined.  I can't afford the losses and the Peacemaker's giving me huge ones.  Couple that with the rediculous volume of AI Eyes out there and I'm a bit stymied.  If I had another ship that could ignore forcefields I'd try cloaker/transport drop runs, but I don't.  I MIGHT still try it with a Bomber SS I fleet for additional firepower.  The whole 'unload 10 at a time' bit will hose up anything non-starship for the intent, though the Maws might come along to suck any defending ships out from under wormholes to help protect the starships.

I'm trying to get an arsenal of ideas ready for the next attempt.  I'm at 4 hours, have 2 planets, and just barely dug my way out of my own coffin.  Under normal circumstances I'd bail this game and just do another one... but I can't see other games being much better, just perhaps better WH positioning.  Ah well, I'll figure it out eventually.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2012, 11:01:26 PM »
If I had another ship that could ignore forcefields I'd try cloaker/transport drop runs, but I don't.  I MIGHT still try it with a Bomber SS I fleet for additional firepower.  The whole 'unload 10 at a time' bit will hose up anything non-starship for the intent, though the Maws might come along to suck any defending ships out from under wormholes to help protect the starships.
Hmm, yea, it seems like cloaker + transport + maws (maybe + some filler to unload first to keep some heat off the maws) could be very effective at grabbing a guard-post's worth of enemy ships, hopping back in the cloaked transport, and either going off home to digest, or just hiding in the outer grav ring or something.  Rinse, repeat, get slammed with 30 waves while you spend all that time ;)

I think the Peacemaker's cramping your style pretty badly, as does the fact that (iirc) mapgen only gave you one Data Center this side of earth.  There are fewer data centers than there was in 5.035, but not by that much.  They're just not where you can feasibly get raid-ss's to at this stage.

Honestly I'd still call 10/10 Vanilla/Vanilla an entirely fair game, though I salute your willngness to put extra spikes on the AI's armored & electrified boot ;)
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2012, 03:20:13 AM »
Hmm, yea, it seems like cloaker + transport + maws (maybe + some filler to unload first to keep some heat off the maws) could be very effective at grabbing a guard-post's worth of enemy ships, hopping back in the cloaked transport, and either going off home to digest, or just hiding in the outer grav ring or something.  Rinse, repeat, get slammed with 30 waves while you spend all that time ;)
What I really need to do is 1) Pop the Mass Drivers then 2) Use Raids on the Guardposts so the Eyes drop then 3) Get the fleet through for the next target.

However, that's not really an option, because as you mentioned, time's an issue.  I think I'm just going to have to soak Eyes.  Also have another plan I intend to put in motion once the blessed econ's repaired.

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I think the Peacemaker's cramping your style pretty badly, as does the fact that (iirc) mapgen only gave you one Data Center this side of earth.  There are fewer data centers than there was in 5.035, but not by that much.  They're just not where you can feasibly get raid-ss's to at this stage.
So far, yeah, I can't dig into a few final systems though, there might be one more in there... RNG willing the last CoP will be on this side of Earth and I can just pop all four of the danged things.

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Honestly I'd still call 10/10 Vanilla/Vanilla an entirely fair game, though I salute your willngness to put extra spikes on the AI's armored & electrified boot ;)
Not sure about that.  I'll get back to you.  It would depend a lot on map choice.  If I get completely shut down on this map I'll probably retry a tree map, so I can chokepoint more effectively.
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2012, 06:13:24 AM »
Alright, AI, it's time for us to continue our... oooh, new update.  Shiny.

Hm, 4 worlds left to eyeball this side of Earth.  Jumping Jax, Huge, Solaris VII, and Cyborg.

There's Eye/Fort/Peacemaker combos cutting me off along the north and center at Three Kings and Marik.  Earth and Craps are simply Peacemaker Eyes.  Better place to make my tests, they're also both only MK IIs.  Need to get some pickets on them. 

Still have that ARS at Kerensky I can't get near at the moment, too.  MK IV, hiding behind the Peacemaker/Eye/Fort walls.  That planet also happens to have a Speed Booster Fab on it, for all the good those would do me.  They die to a sneeze.

Just started getting econ again, I have 3,650 energy with 2 of the home human settlements (8k energy, +25 m/c each) powered down to allow it to cover.  With the other 3 I have 24k in energy I can manipulate... or I could put up a set of tertiary reactors.  Which would kind of defeat the purpose but those two human settlements would cover the costs if I just needed raw power.

Current economic income is 721 metal/sec with an outgoing of 228, net 493.  Crystal is 996/sec with 228 outbound for net of 768.  And I'm metal heavy on my construction.  Snort.  At least it'll help with Raid pops.

For one of my tricks, I build a Starship constructor and a Rally point (local) on Blackstone.  We'll get back to that later, I just want it there for now.  Eventually, I'm gonna start capturing some of these inbounds to help with defenses.  You want to send MK IIIs at me?  Allllrighty!  Rally will end up at the command center to help with 'breakthrough' defending.  I also need to move some turrets around, but I'm waiting till I hit half-mill in each material before I move more than 5 at a time.  It'll also let me take a bunch of grav turrets down.

Realizing I'm definately in need of more energy, I bring homeworld up to 3xAll Reactors... and realize all this time I've had the calculation completely FUBAR.  I'd thought (for example, the MK III) was 80,000 -> 80k * 0.8 -> (80k * 0.8) * 0.8...  yeah, no.

Whoops.  So that third set of reactors is only getting me ... errr, wait a second.  Something's off here.



That's the reactors.  I've marked with the blue tag the Misery reactors. 

Reactor Is: 5000 -> 4000 -> 3200.  Cool, this is how I thought they worked.
Reactor IIs: 40000 -> 24000 -> 14400.  Hm?
Reactor IIIs: 80000 -> 16000 -> 8000.  WTF?

So, Reactor Is have a 20% effeciency loss.  Right, that's what I'd thought they all did.  Now, actually LOOKING at the help text...

IIs are a 40% effeciency loss.  IIIs are an 80%... Holy mother of gods.  No wonder my math was so off on the Z-Gennie that Keith didn't even bother to correct it.  I'm actually better off building the 3rd and 4th II instead of a 2nd III?  30 instead of 40 m/c costs.  What the filthy foul?  *sighs*  There comes a point here where spamming Reactor Is becomes more feasible than a reactor III.  However, there seems to be a loss cap on the Reactor IIIs. that should have went to 3200, not 8000.

You know, I just don't know.  I've got the 'nudge' of power I needed, enough to bring two FFs online over the Cisko exit on Blackstone.

Getting a few scouts past Earth to Hacker, I find a new ARS.  This one's lightly defended by the Tank on a MK II world.  Ya-voot!  Poker's just a MK III world that I'll have to run over at some point.

4:20.  I've popped a tachy over on Tau to land my last Scout I as a picket and have worked on getting pickets out to Earth/Craps with the Scout IIs.  Wave for 877 ships (48 AIP) fires up for Blackstone.  I've moved... most of the turrets at this point, but I wasn't anywhere near as polite to my econ as I said I was going to be.  However, the fleet's at Blackstone, ready to help out as needed, but I'd like to see how the turrets perform on their own.

Waiting for the wave, I take a look at Earth.  Both Mass Drivers are exposed and are on wormholes.  That'll help.  Craps also has both exposed.  So, Fleet-Raid the Mass Drivers then Raid SS the posts down.  This might work.

Marik, on the other hand, has both of the Mass Drivers next to a fortress and the cmd center.  That'll have to be a polycrystal run.

Not bad.  Better alignment on the turrets and a 'wider' minefield and I should be good to go.  Did wreck the econ again though.  All the dead turrets I simply popped and moved.  The AoE turrets could use another couple of FFs tho'.  I patiently wait for the Whipping Boy to fully rebuild before I move the fleet.  It's agonizing waiting.

I'm glad I did, 1008 announced at 4:27, and we're not fully back online yet.  Yeah, fleet's gonna help stuff this one, most of the mid-range batteries are still moving to their new 'in-line' position.

Not too badly shaken from that.  Majority of the fleet's still up and the turrets didn't get TOO badly thwacked.  The fleet's heading back to Misery for R&R tho'.  Thinking of trying the EMP Mines with off wormhole turrets so the turrets only engage the active targets while the EMP'ers stay stuck in the back.  May take a bit of doing to pull that off.  The mined run is working nicely... well, at least it's blowing up nicely... and I'm assuming is doing some decent work.  Can't beat 'em for the price.

4:37  Fleet's rebuilt, econ's starting to flow again, and Whipping Boy is up.  Let's go see about Earth.  I think, since there's only 67 units on Earth currently, I'll simply take the Maws and Bomber IIs in, while the rest of the fleet resides as backup in Eridani.

That didn't work as well as I'd hoped.  Lost 3 Maws.  And there's a grav guardian under glass that's covering the inbound wormhole that's not letting me speed the Bombers out for a suicide run.  The Ion V isn't helping.  All the Bombers were dead by the time they broke the gravity well. 

Alright, that grav's gonna mess me up.  New tactic.  Bombers to Marik.  Pop the dual Mass Drivers on the Cmd Center and work the fort a bit until they're dead.  Then I can eventually get into Earth from Marik... and hopefully sneak a few more scouts into the middle of the southern area, too.  Can do a reinforcement cleanup in Green Lantern while I'm at it.

4:47 I'm due another wave, and soon.  Fleet's just about ready to go.

Yep, 4:49, 876 ship wave.  I took a little bit of smackage taking 250 ships off Green Lantern, so the fleet's gonna head home to Misery and chill while we confirm I'm not going to end up with my arse airborne.

Man, those poor Basics and Lasers.  They just DIE in the 3rd or 4th enemy salvos.  I need more range.  Meh.  Ya-whoot!  160 Human Resistance Fighters.  Go boys Go!  Well, since the resistance hopped in, I can head the fleet for Marik.

WOW.  Really?  Suicide Guardian took out ALL 186 bombers in a single pop.  They did, however, manage to get the two Mass Drivers, so I can at least raid Marik out now.  Those Human Resistance fighters are just suiciding all over the place, though.  Well, at least they're dying with style.

4:57  Blackstone is STILL rebuilding.  Yeesh.

There's a SpireShield on Marik that's going to cause me grief, I'll have to deal with that.  Bomber SSs are probably my best bet.  Guess I'll build a few.... errr... after Blackstone and the fleet are done.  AIP at 51 from Spec Forces GPs and time at 5:00:00.

5:00:00 Wave announce: 1,268 ships.  Here we go again.  The Rebellionists have finished their anti-threat walkabout and are at 43 Bomber 35 Frigates left.  That'll help.  I'm still rebuilding the turrets though, in particular the AoEs.  Ugh.

266 unit carrier is on board.  That's gonna hurt.  The Rebels and parking my repair/rebuilder drones under the AoE forcefield saved my bacon, that fight.  Hmmm.  Meanwhile the Raids got all but two of  Marik's GPs down.

Finally got scouts onto yet another 'inner' planet, Huge.  1 Counter II, Fact IV.  Fort I but no Eye this time on a Peacekeeper (Peacemaker) world.  I keep this up I really am going to swap out the transport template for Moya...

Twiddle twiddle.  Rebuild rebuild.  Twiddle Twiddle.

5:08: Hey!  Blackstone's done.

5:12 Fleet's ready to go.  The Raids are on Marik already, and started work on cleanup for all the little guys under the Spireshield.  The main fleet is going to try to punch a hole in the Tachyon grid in Three Kings, hopefully letting me get scouts onto Jumping Jax... the Raids are sandpapering the Spireshield.  I'll need to keep an eye on them.

Three Kings, for some reason, is at 200 ships, and is MK III.  This will probably hurt a bit, but if I can just get the Tachyon cleared I might be able to sneak the Scout IIs down there.

Heh, I just realized I've got two Fact IVs down here with me, Huge and Riker... right next to each other.

OMG.  Did those stupid self-destructors get a beefup or something?  400 ships dead on entry into Three Kings.  Tachyon Guardian's down but OMG.  Seriously?!  Ow.

5:17.  The Raids have the SpireShield II down to 72%.  I can hear the sandpaper machine goin gin the background.

5:18 CPA, 407 units announces.  You know at about 5:16 I'll get a wave warning.

Finally got eyes on Jumping Jax.  Peacemaker, Eye, Data Center, Alarm.  DC is near the wormhole.  I can probably Raid SS suicide it.  MK IV planet, too.  With most of the fleet needing a rebuild though I'm loathe to do anything but let the Raids just keep working on the SpireShield.

Eyes on Solaris VII now too, 3/1 with nothing else of import.  Last world to see will be Cyborg.  And Eyes there now too.  3/2 world with an Eye... but NOT the Peacemaker (for once).

So.



What we're looking at here is pain.  Lots of pain.  The P0 worlds are the Eye/Mass Driver worlds, usually with Fort.  The P4s are the CoPs.  Three Kings is heavily dug in, that's just going to hurt trying to get past.

Fact IVs on Riker and Huge there, in the middle.  Kerensky's an ARS, so I've got to break Three Kings eventually.  Marik, along the northern run there, is nearly broken.  Earth and Craps are Eye/Mass Driver worlds, which I need to get through for the rest of the galaxy.  Jumping Jax has my Data Center.  As you can tell, time in game is 5:22.  CPA still needs to land, and most of the fleet's rebuilding from that suicide guardian.  Spireshield is at 44%.

What'd I tell ya?



The wave was stopped reasonably cleanly with only minor human support (36 ships or so).  Just in time the fleet's nearly done, too, so at least my econ isn't super-loaded for the turret/ff reconstruction.  All 407 ships were MK IIs, too.  The majority of 'em were heading for Eridani, and some of my remaining rebellionists went for the cutoff.  Thanks guys, appreciated... we're still rebuilding the Lasers and Basics, as well as a good chunk of the minefield.

AIP 52 from Autoprogress at 5:30.

Next wave: 1316 to Blackstone.  Oh JOY.  Hey, FLEET?  Get over there.  Your presense is no longer requested on Misery.

The Raids finally take down the last station on Marik and head for Misery for some well deserved repairs and a few bottles of some champagne like substance our local Dock workers are brewing from cattle leather.  I don't ask as long as noone dies from it.

With fleet assistance we jam up the second wave, but about 50% fleet losses.  I can live with that, considering the remaining CPA came in with 'em.  the turret field is actually mostly intact, it looks like the Fleet took most of that on the nose, just the basics and lasers are completely flattened.  To save me some fleet, my Raids head over to Marik and piss off the last Suicide Guardian, since they can take the hit.

5:41 The bombers land on Marik, taking another swing at the entry wormhole covering Fortress III.  This time, they're basically left alone to do their job.  I'm micro'ing them to pick off one-off attackers cause, well, I've really got nothing better to do until this is done.

Cost me half a fleet due to some misclicks, but Earth is finally devoid of Mass Drivers.  Raid time.  DAMMIT, soaked a reinforcing Suicide Guardian.  Didn't even have time to react.  Sonofa... that's gettin' old.  There's a bunch of cloaked stuff in here, must be a stealth outpost.  Oh, Scout Starships, you're UP!  ... err... Crap, I didn't rebuild you, did I?

That's odd...  I KNOW the Stealth is here, because there's a Grav Guardian that keeps playing hide and seek with me.  However, the Scout Starship isn't Tachyon'ing the stealth awake.  Hrm.  Whuzzup wit dat?



Oh, duh.  It's on the resource point right outside the FF.  *facepalm*

5:51 957 ship wave at AIP 52 to Blackstone.  Fleet's still a bit banged up but I send 'em over anyway.

Man, these basics are USELESS when the enemy's got more than just Frigates for range.  The Basics and Lasers are basically dying in the alpha-salvo to the Beam/Raptor/Frigate combinations.  Bah.

5:58. 992 ships to Blackstone.  It JUST barely finished rebuild.  The fleet's almost finished it's rebuild, so they're gonna head over to help out.  I'd like to get enough econ up to move the Lasers/Basics back off the front line and let the enemy 'glide' into them piecemeal.  They're useless where they are.  I need the FFs and tractors to take the alpha salvos.

Hm, there's *2* stealths in Earth.  Great.

FF rebuild from scrap is REALLY nice.  Don't have to constantly go check on my whipping boy and figure out 'Hey, you run out of FFs yet?  No?  K.'

Hey!  That picture WAS right the first time.  The stealth wasn't revealed while it was under a FF.  No Fair!  I call that an illegal hit!

Alright.  AIP is 54.  Time is 6:05 game time.  I've really gotten, well, nowhere, except for banging my head against a few brick walls until they fell down because all the blood removed the foundational support... However, I have scouted all the inner south, found my next DC (if I can ever break the planet(s) guarding the raid run), and started to break the Earth/Craps choke.  After I take the DC out, my next 'real' target is Hacker, the ARS on the far side of Craps, which ISN'T a MK IV planet and is right at the edge of the 'four hops' I can reach without deep strike.  At least I want to see what's on it.  It's a crappy planet for resources (0/3) but I need a stepstone to continue the scouting for the last CoP... and, well, it's an ARS and CSG-A.  They need to go down anyway.  I'll most likely pop it, K it, and then abandon it to the wolves.

Eridani, on the other hand, is a nice 4/4 world hooked off the existing whipping boy.  I'd need a get pop or two to control the inbound directions but I could also leave a partial patrol fleet behind protecting both worlds.  We'll see.

I gotta get some sleep.  Night all.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2012, 09:27:03 AM »
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No wonder my math was so off on the Z-Gennie that Keith didn't even bother to correct it.
It wasn't an intentional decision on my part, I didn't have the numbers in my head either and didn't notice the errors :)

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However, there seems to be a loss cap on the Reactor IIIs. that should have went to 3200, not 8000.
Minimum reactor efficiency (for all types) is 10%.  That's why you can get infinite energy, you just pay through the nose.

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WOW.  Really?  Suicide Guardian took out ALL 186 bombers in a single pop.
At least it probably gets an entry on the high-score table in return for oblivion.

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Did those stupid self-destructors get a beefup or something?
Nope, haven't touched those in... probably over a year.

Now you have the beginning of an inkling of how spirecraft-martyrs feel from the wrong side.

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Finally got eyes on Jumping Jax.  Peacemaker, Eye, Data Center, Alarm.
And the RNG throws a bone! into shark infested waters

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What we're looking at here is pain.  Lots of pain.
Welcome To Paintown, Population: 10/10.

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Hey!  That picture WAS right the first time.  The stealth wasn't revealed while it was under a FF.  No Fair!  I call that an illegal hit!
Really?  I didn't realize ff coverage had anything to do with tachyon hits; I know it prevents tractor hits but not tachyon.  Do you have a save while that stealth post is still up?

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Alright.  AIP is 54.  Time is 6:05 game time.  I've really gotten, well, nowhere, except for banging my head against a few brick walls until they fell down because all the blood removed the foundational support...
Sounds like how I learned to program :)

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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2012, 02:51:56 PM »
It wasn't an intentional decision on my part, I didn't have the numbers in my head either and didn't notice the errors :)
LOL, no worries. :)  I'd actually figured it was one of those "type type... you know, he'll figure it out, let him go with it... delete delete..." :)

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Minimum reactor efficiency (for all types) is 10%.  That's why you can get infinite energy, you just pay through the nose.
Ah!  That's good to know.

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At least it probably gets an entry on the high-score table in return for oblivion.

... Nope, haven't touched those in... probably over a year.
Now you have the beginning of an inkling of how spirecraft-martyrs feel from the wrong side.
I'm not used to seeing this many of them.  One system had *four* of them.  Yikes.

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Really?  I didn't realize ff coverage had anything to do with tachyon hits; I know it prevents tractor hits but not tachyon.  Do you have a save while that stealth post is still up?
Attached.  It's in the Earth system, right side near the Eridani Wormhole.

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Sounds like how I learned to program :)
Yeah, I may have to hand my crown and trophies back in until I stop looking like such a loser this round.   ;D  Really though I think most of my problems stemmed from the 2 hour mark when the waves shifted into high gear out of nowhere on me and I'd thought I was alright and got caught with my pants down, starting a death spiral I barely made it out of.

Also, waves are coming back to back a LOT.  Over 70% of the time.  Is this an artifact of the new timing system?
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2012, 03:13:08 PM »
Also, waves are coming back to back a LOT.  Over 70% of the time.  Is this an artifact of the new timing system?
You know, it just might be.  Aside from the bonus to the max-end of the random range when there's only 1 entry point, all the other change is done by raising the min-end.  Squeezing the random range would seem to necessarily result in less deviation across AI players.

I'm gonna put in more detailed logging on the wave-time-interval stuff since it's so important that we understand exactly what it's doing in there in real scenarios (it's not too mysterious to me, but I could just be missing something).
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2012, 05:17:54 PM »
Ok, have improved the logging but not sure when that will be out, so here's some example data from a diff 7 test:

Player
Launching
Wave
Wave
Launched
At
Wave
Multiplier
From
Interval
Launch
In
Seconds
Seconds
Last
Wave
From
This
Player
Seconds
Since
Last
Wave
From
Other
Player
80:11:401700
90:17:3011050350
80:25:171.31517817
90:32:461.451966916449
80:35:220.962122605
90:44:341.122674708552
80:52:111.631311009
90:57:581.283478804347
81:08:461.584126995
91:13:021.434382904256
81:24:191.485059933
91:30:381.6854381056379
81:41:181.6260781019
91:47:411.6264611023383
81:58:451.6671251047
92:04:551.6474951034370

That doesn't show the actual random ranges, but they were trending as I expected.

So in that test the waves weren't really back-to-back'ing; I'm not sure what may have happened in your game.
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2012, 05:42:00 PM »
Ok, have improved the logging but not sure when that will be out, so here's some example data from a diff 7 test:

That doesn't show the actual random ranges, but they were trending as I expected.

So in that test the waves weren't really back-to-back'ing; I'm not sure what may have happened in your game.

Hrm, interesting.  I'm not sure then.  I'm seeing a lot of waves landing within 3-4 minutes of the last, sometimes gapping at merely a minute apart.  Then I'll see gaps of 10 minutes between them occassionally, too.  Do some AIs (besides the Support AI) lean towards 'support waves'?
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2012, 05:50:19 PM »
I'm seeing a lot of waves landing within 3-4 minutes of the last, sometimes gapping at merely a minute apart.
Hmm, in the examples I was seeing it was usually 4-6 minutes apart from player 8 to player 9.  But that's largely because the initial forced separation was 350 seconds.  And once you're near or past the 2 hour mark the total deviation is pretty small, so if before that point (possibly due to playing before some of the later fixes to how entry-point-count affects things) the AIs had coincidentally "synchronized" then they would tend to stay that way until your entry point count went up significantly. 

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Then I'll see gaps of 10 minutes between them occassionally, too.
But I dunno if I can explain that if the above happened ;) 

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Do some AIs (besides the Support AI) lean towards 'support waves'?
No, the support AI doesn't even send waves (just adds stuff to the other player's waves), and there's no mechanic that tries to regulate the gap between player 8 and player 9 waves (except that player 9's first-wave-allowed threshold is about 1.5x as big as player 8's, but after that first player 9 wave is announced that rule becomes completely inactive).
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2012, 10:48:10 PM »
Attached.  It's in the Earth system, right side near the Eridani Wormhole.
I fired it up to test the new energy model (it upgrades the save just fine, fyi; you wind up with 2 collectors and 2 converters because I went with converters giving 75k for 100m+100c; so about 91k surplus), and while I was looking at it I actually saw your line-of-mines up close...

Oh man, that's hilarious.  I laughed so hard as I found out what it really would look like to stack stuff, physically, end-to-end from the earth to the moon ;)

I've got to work on that line-building tool...
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2012, 06:48:36 AM »
I fired it up to test the new energy model (it upgrades the save just fine, fyi; you wind up with 2 collectors and 2 converters because I went with converters giving 75k for 100m+100c; so about 91k surplus), and while I was looking at it I actually saw your line-of-mines up close...
oooooh, that could be very nice in the early rounds.. Thank you.

Quote
Oh man, that's hilarious.  I laughed so hard as I found out what it really would look like to stack stuff, physically, end-to-end from the earth to the moon ;)

I've got to work on that line-building tool...
Ah, I see you're slightly amused at how tightly I pack line-mines (TM!).  Excellent.  Side note: That's the only way they're useful.

As to your last comment, allow me to quote an antique friend...

"Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes...."

Hint to those who DON'T get it... think Tron.  Errrr... Tron 1.

 :D
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2012, 10:48:54 AM »
A line tool would be wonderful.  Lining up mines is very tedious, annoying, and time consuming.  But effective.  And hilarious.  Don't forget hilarious.

Offline zharmad

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2012, 07:27:21 PM »
Although, if a line tool *is* made, there ought to be a possible mechanism for the AI to disarm your mines (begin to bring tachyon drones on AI waves) or evade them (small possibility of ships taking a right turn for a moment when neighbours hit a mine). Invented through sheer artificial selection if need be, if that's the way AIs "evolve".

Endless lemmings...

= = =
edit: would still love a line tool, btw.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 07:49:38 PM by zharmad »

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2012, 09:45:12 PM »
Although, if a line tool *is* made, there ought to be a possible mechanism for the AI to disarm your mines (begin to bring tachyon drones on AI waves) or evade them (small possibility of ships taking a right turn for a moment when neighbours hit a mine). Invented through sheer artificial selection if need be, if that's the way AIs "evolve".

Endless lemmings...

= = =
edit: would still love a line tool, btw.

Errr, why is this necessary?
... and then we'll have cake.