Author Topic: Rematch - Keith's Revenge  (Read 9626 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2012, 09:34:59 PM »
I wonder if Maws are Mass Driver targetable.  Since they can be hit by Bomber SS, I have to assume that's a yes.  That's going to dent some plans.
Mass Driver targeting rules are different than Bomber SS targeting rules.  The mass driver can hit:

1) Starships
2) Golems
3) Guardians
4) Carriers

with the following explicit exceptions (some of these may be redundant, I list them for completeness) that are immune to it :

- Hunter Killer
- Devourer Golem
- Mining Golem
- Zenith Traders
- Dyson Sphere
- Neinzul Missile Silos
- Core Shield Generators
- Spirecraft Scout
- AI Home Command Station
- Core Guard Posts
- MkV Guardians

Quote
Laser IIs... gyeah.  LOL, wait a second?!  The Science details for Laser II Turrets tells me about the Laser Drones, and nothing about the turret!  D'oh!  That's hysterical.  Not that I can't look it up in the build screen but that's not going to help newbies.
Count Derpington strikes again.  Fixed for 5.037, thanks :)

Quote
Second wave is a mere 68 ships.  ROFLCOPTORS!  Seriously.  If anything proves just how over-weight early game AIP boosts are to certain AIs, this is it.
Yea, it's an ollllld mechanic, and I think something may need to be done instead.  Just convert it into +% wave size and/or +% reinforcement size or whatever.

And even those different +% modifiers make a lot of AI types "silently" a lot harder than some other AI types, which I'm not convinced is a good thing.  On the other hand, the AI type description usually will actually mention "hits harder" or whatever.

Quote
LOL, my maws are trying to swallow the flagship and Leech starships.  They're not immune to swallow but it doesn't seem to work.

Okay, that's not funny anymore, guys. STOP IT.  With only 5 of you 2/5s of your abilities being wasted is NOT FUNNY.
Hmm, oops? :)  I can probably convince them to not do that, but I'm not sure they'd try to swallow anything then if their assist-target and kill-target are both invalid.

Quote
We saw how that +AIP boost worked out last time, didn't we...
Oh, sir, please try it, it's just a waffffer thin AIP mint.

Quote
Blackstone options:
Primary: Zenith Polarizer
Secondaries: Zenith Bombard and Cutlass.
Not bad.

Quote
Ooooooooooooh.  Oh, choices choices.  Polarizer does extra damage against armor ships... Wiki time.  Rats, no data.  I know somewhere around here is the scaling multipliers for them.  Dang, can't decide.  Bombards or Polarizers?  I AM fighting the tank... 3k armor on Armor ships and Tanks, both.  You know, the polarizer might be a best option here.  Those ships are NEVER GOING AWAY.  No hack, we're going polarizer.

Polarizer multiplier = sqrt(target_armor) * effective_armor_boost [the latter is almost always 1]
Minimum multiplier: 4 (so 16 or lower armor is the same result)
Maximum multiplier: 100 (so 10,000 or higher armor is the same result)
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2012, 09:50:46 PM »
Mass Driver targeting rules are different than Bomber SS targeting rules.  The mass driver can hit:
Definately good to know.

Quote
Yea, it's an ollllld mechanic, and I think something may need to be done instead.  Just convert it into +% wave size and/or +% reinforcement size or whatever.

And even those different +% modifiers make a lot of AI types "silently" a lot harder than some other AI types, which I'm not convinced is a good thing.  On the other hand, the AI type description usually will actually mention "hits harder" or whatever.
The % multipliers aren't so bad, but the early weighting is horrendous.  A +10 AIP boost is huge in the early game.  20/30?  Yeesh.  Later it's not so bad, if noticeable before Diff 8.

Quote
Hmm, oops? :)  I can probably convince them to not do that, but I'm not sure they'd try to swallow anything then if their assist-target and kill-target are both invalid.
Oh, that's just super gee whiz-bang.  How about a different approach?  Make Starship deconstructors <large swallow> and Maws <Swallow>, this way proper immunities, and thus proper swallow targets, can be ascertained?  It's INCREDIBLY annoying (and possibly game threatening) when there's 3 starships in a mob and 3/5 maws are ignoring perfectly good appetizers!

Quote
Polarizer multiplier = sqrt(target_armor) * effective_armor_boost [the latter is almost always 1]
Minimum multiplier: 4 (so 16 or lower armor is the same result)
Maximum multiplier: 100 (so 10,000 or higher armor is the same result)

Ah, sweet, so x54 for their primary targets, the 3000 armor ships.  Thanks for that.  :)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2012, 10:17:27 PM »
Oh, that's just super gee whiz-bang.  How about a different approach?  Make Starship deconstructors <large swallow> and Maws <Swallow>, this way proper immunities, and thus proper swallow targets, can be ascertained?  It's INCREDIBLY annoying (and possibly game threatening) when there's 3 starships in a mob and 3/5 maws are ignoring perfectly good appetizers!
I think I've got a solution that will work.  Do you have a save with the maws gnawing on the nacelle of some starship while the fighters fly by?
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2012, 10:27:02 PM »
Oh, that's just super gee whiz-bang.  How about a different approach?  Make Starship deconstructors <large swallow> and Maws <Swallow>, this way proper immunities, and thus proper swallow targets, can be ascertained?  It's INCREDIBLY annoying (and possibly game threatening) when there's 3 starships in a mob and 3/5 maws are ignoring perfectly good appetizers!
I think I've got a solution that will work.  Do you have a save with the maws gnawing on the nacelle of some starship while the fighters fly by?

Just checked my autosaves, not at the moment, all my saves are during 'quiet moments'.  I'm sure I'll have one in the near future, though, and I'll capture it for you.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2012, 11:03:35 PM »
Just checked my autosaves, not at the moment, all my saves are during 'quiet moments'.  I'm sure I'll have one in the near future, though, and I'll capture it for you.
Ok, I've put in some improvements for 5.037 that address ways what you were seeing could happen, but having a test scenario will help me find other things causing it, if any.
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2012, 05:52:03 AM »
Just checked my autosaves, not at the moment, all my saves are during 'quiet moments'.  I'm sure I'll have one in the near future, though, and I'll capture it for you.
Ok, I've put in some improvements for 5.037 that address ways what you were seeing could happen, but having a test scenario will help me find other things causing it, if any.
I'll make sure you get one for testing, thanks Keith.

Also, edit to post at end of 1:30 timeline, I finally got photobucket to behave, 1:30 map is included inline.
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2012, 05:13:41 PM »
Alright, now that the tree trimmers are gone and I can stop worrying about them falling out of my 30 foot palm trees...

Where I am:



1:30 in (roughly) and 163 ship wave inbound announces as I fire up.  I've updated to .037 as well, so we're about to see if my maws can behave themselves.  I grab a save for Keith for later in case he still needs it.

Woot!  Maws are working.  I started losing ships to the leech and realized I had some parasite buildup.  I did a wormhole-bounce (rt-click to system, shift-rt-click back) to clear the parasites, but it got me thinking that it'd be nice if Engis could remove those things.

With the immediate threat removed, the fleet heads for Cisko to remove the 240... 240?  That's some reinforcements... 240 ships and move towards Blackstone.  My entire fleet does NOT wake the planet.  Snicker, though they did suffer some ED.  A bit of cleanup takes Cisko down to ~70 ships and we hit Blackstone, starting with a run at the EMP Guardian before it gets cut loose.  The Ion III is happily wailing away on me while I chase down a ton of guardians and do general cleanup.  I expect to be running with the Maws here eventually.  In particular chasing down that sniper guardian took awhile, too.  I sic'd the fighters after it while the rest of the fleet kept working. 

The new alteration to not force max-time waves in the early game (I'm at 1:40, so I'm getting close to it) is working nicely.  I'm getting much smaller waves of 68, 72, etc.   This is letting my turret build at homeworld handle the majority of problems.  Eventually with a handful of fighters and bombers left protecting my maws, the fleet runs for home after popping Blackstone's CC.  The maws barely made it home alive with rebuilt fleet coming to rescue them in Cisko.

At AIP 40 I get a 200 ship wave inbound on Misery.  Okay, this can be handled... Need to get the whip up on Blackstone ASAP though.  A transport with a Colony ship runs for Blackstone.  I build a Mil I next to the Ion III I've been saving.  Of course a lone raptor interrupts that plan.  I send the Raids over to help do point defense for the moment.

When the Mil I comes up I send what I've got of real fleet over after the Misery defense to help it out for now.  I set it to 10 Engi I/5 Rebuilder automatic, drop two FFs on the CC, and 2 on the WH leading back to Cisko so escapees don't have an easy time making a run at the homeworld.  The Raiders head back to Misery to make a run at the Warp Gate in Green Lantern shortly, which should shut down waves against homeworld.  I also begin Poalrizer construction as well.

I look over the WH map for Blackstone and try to make a few decisions about how I want to organize this one.



So, my CC's on top of the Ion III I suffered so beautifully to keep control of.  For a range basis for the diagram, the distance between the Command Center and the Eridani wormhole is about a Laser Turret's full diameter of range.  Now I need to make a few decisions here.  Hot Sauce I intend to eventually claim as a 'splitter' whipping boy, to keep max-time waves down.  I intend to simply go out and blow that gate (with that gate + Green Lantern's I'll be at AIP 50).  That leaves the two gates from Matrix and Eridani.  Eridani is a monster of a world, I can't break that for a while.  Even a raid against its gate will cost me a lot.  Matrix, however, is my preferred wave sender.  I never intend to take that world, and while it IS back in the 'backfield' I'm relatively sure that until attacks become extreme my homeworld won't be in danger, and it's a world I have no intention of ever taking, whereas I MIGHT take Eridani eventually.

However, one of the things I CAN do is setup a mined path along the yellow stripe, forcing inbounds from Matrix AND Eridani into the same mining path if they make a run at the Cisko WH.  With LR firepower chewing on anyone making that run that should protect most, if not all, of the attempted escapes to the Cisko wormhole... well, the ones that don't just immediately run back into Matrix, anyway.

However, if I pop Matrix and remove the concern of immediate retreat... well, if they immediate retreat to Eridani they can just loop around as threat anyway.  Kind of a moot point until I seal up the north side.

I also hate short-range defenses.  Nearly no time to react and everything's a cluster.  Alright, so, I suicide the fleet against Eye, fort, and Mass Driver in Eridani to take down the Warp gate there, too (AIP 55, woots?), but I need to break Eridani eventually anyway.  Pop Hot Sauce, lay down a standard minefield and get my turrets up and running on Blackstone.  3 FFs near (but not on) the Matrix WH, with the AoE's inside it.  I'll eventually setup an EMP Minefield here too, is my guess.  Wave announces for Blackstone while we're building, 214 ships at 1:51.  Reasonable, but we're still building, and my econ's in the dirt.  This may not go well.  I've only got a half-cap of Snipers and LRMs up at the moment.  What's rebuilt of the fleet has been shipped over from Misery.

Assault is 23 Beams, 42 Bombers, 47 Fighters, 52 Frigs, 44 Raptors, Flagship/Siege/Raid.... and they came in from Eridani, CRAP.  Well, this will be painful.  Also, due to the new spread, at 52 AIP with next progress at 500 to Tech III hardened 4 of each are MK III.  Ow.  He also brought a few buddies from the raid at Hot Sauce in, and I've got 130 threat out there still... somewhere I don't have scouts.  My guess, Eridani.  The defense went FAAARRRR too easily.  I have to assume the majority of the invaders did a retreat and are currently looping.  I go to Green Lantern (AI planet) and set an alert for 120 enemy units present on it.  As long as I keep scouring Green Lantern that SHOULD give me a warning (if I'm paying attention) of an attack force 'looping' around behind me from the Whipping Boy.

I should probably neuter Cisko to make sure reinforcements don't get tied up at the wormholes... but the main path drags the fleet right over the Cisko CC, so it's kind of useless.

3250 in K now, but my econ's utterly wrecked.  I'll wait to spend it on something after I get everyone back up and running.  Under Pause, I setup a unit to travel from on top of Cisko into Matrix and 'trace' the line, amazingly slowly, with a standard mine-field line.  170 hand placed mines later...  I'm tempted to extrapolate on JUST how boring that is, but I'm pretty sure y'all can figure it out.  :)

Trying to bring online the full turret set I run into Energy problems again.  I fire up a double-set on Blackstone too.  I've barely got any starships built, only the Raids.  Narf.

Still trying to build up at 1:58 another wave (222 ships) heads for Blackstone, this time from the Matrix gate.  Turrets still aren't fully up and the FF's are still building.  I had to turn off two home settlements to remove some power concerns, as well.  There is nothing QUITE like watching a lightning storm eradicate a raptor fleet though.

Time to flip on some Netflix while I spin my wheels waiting for everything to build... or not, right, replaced my Credit Card... have to wait until they process the updated information.  Guess I can read Dwarf Fortress Urist McDumbass stories... :)

Or....  Noooot.

2:03:07.  In one minute and twenty five seconds hell rains down on Blackstone.  951 ships.  What the HELL?

To the log files, Robin!

The last 3 wave computations:
Code: [Select]
7/7/2012 1:32:25 PM (5.037)
-----------------------------------
Starting CreateMixedWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 1:49:07 ; Player.AIType: Peacemaker ; Player.AIDifficulty: 10 ; AIProgressionLevel: 51 ; AITechLevel: 2
WaveSize = MultiplierFromWaveInterval * MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetCount: 0.58 * 1 = 0.58
aiTypeBasedAIPIncrement : 0
since difficulty >= 8, effectiveAIP = floor( ( AIProgressionLevel * 0.8 ) ^ 1.1 ) : 59
workingShips = ( effectiveAIP * player.AIDifficulty ) / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) : 196.67
workingShips *= FInt.FromParts( 0, AILoop.Instance.AIRandom.Next( 800, 1100 ) ) : 194.7
workingShips = Max(workingShips,34 * handicap_multiplier) :194.7
Inside AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, multiplier: 1
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, workingShips :194.7
numberShips = workingShips.IntValue :194
numberTech123 = numberShips - numberDefensive - numberExplosive - numberCore :194


7/7/2012 1:59:47 PM (5.037)
-----------------------------------
Starting CreateMixedWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 1:57:04 ; Player.AIType: Peacemaker ; Player.AIDifficulty: 10 ; AIProgressionLevel: 52 ; AITechLevel: 2
WaveSize = MultiplierFromWaveInterval * MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetCount: 0.66 * 1 = 0.66
aiTypeBasedAIPIncrement : 0
since difficulty >= 8, effectiveAIP = floor( ( AIProgressionLevel * 0.8 ) ^ 1.1 ) : 60
workingShips = ( effectiveAIP * player.AIDifficulty ) / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) : 200
workingShips *= FInt.FromParts( 0, AILoop.Instance.AIRandom.Next( 800, 1100 ) ) : 177.59
workingShips = Max(workingShips,34 * handicap_multiplier) :177.59
Inside AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, multiplier: 1
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, workingShips :177.59
numberShips = workingShips.IntValue :177
numberTech123 = numberShips - numberDefensive - numberExplosive - numberCore :177


7/7/2012 2:06:30 PM (5.037)
-----------------------------------
Starting CreateMixedWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 2:03:01 ; Player.AIType: The_Tank ; Player.AIDifficulty: 10 ; AIProgressionLevel: 53 ; AITechLevel: 2
WaveSize = MultiplierFromWaveInterval * MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetCount: 2.06 * 1 = 2.06
aiTypeBasedAIPIncrement : 0
since difficulty >= 8, effectiveAIP = floor( ( AIProgressionLevel * 0.8 ) ^ 1.1 ) : 61
workingShips = ( effectiveAIP * player.AIDifficulty ) / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) : 203.33
workingShips *= FInt.FromParts( 0, AILoop.Instance.AIRandom.Next( 800, 1100 ) ) : 180.15
workingShips = Max(workingShips,34 * handicap_multiplier) :180.15
Inside AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, multiplier: 1
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, workingShips :180.15
numberShips = workingShips.IntValue :180
numberTech123 = numberShips - numberDefensive - numberExplosive - numberCore :180

Alright, nothing significant there.  Heck, if anything, it's lighter than 2 waves ago.  Hm.

Tigers, minipods, and fighters are 500 of these ships.  Okay, that makes a little more sense, but still...

Oh, yeah.  That'd do it...

Code: [Select]
7/7/2012 1:32:25 PM (5.037)
-----------------------------------
Triggering Normal Wave for player 9; wave size factor: 0.58; Game Time: 1:49:08

7/7/2012 1:32:26 PM (5.037)
-----------------------------------
Receiving AddInboundWave from AI Thread at Game Time: 1:49:08
WaveSize factor: 0.58
Raw Units Dictionary Entries:
RaptorII => 35
MissileShipII => 35
FighterII => 32
BomberII => 43
Flagship => 1
ZenithBeamFrigateII => 33
DreadnoughtII => 1
AIRaidStarship => 1
RaptorIII => 3
Cruiser => 3
FighterIII => 3
BomberIII => 4
ZenithBeamFrigateIII => 3

7/7/2012 1:59:47 PM (5.037)
-----------------------------------
Triggering Normal Wave for player 9; wave size factor: 0.66; Game Time: 1:57:05

7/7/2012 1:59:48 PM (5.037)
-----------------------------------
Receiving AddInboundWave from AI Thread at Game Time: 1:57:05
WaveSize factor: 0.66
Raw Units Dictionary Entries:
RaptorII => 31
LeechStarshipII => 2
BomberII => 38
ZenithBeamFrigateII => 28
FighterII => 33
MissileShipII => 31
AIRaidStarship => 1
RaptorIII => 3
BomberIII => 4
ZenithBeamFrigateIII => 3
FighterIII => 3
Cruiser => 3

7/7/2012 2:06:30 PM (5.037)
-----------------------------------
Triggering Normal Wave for player 8; wave size factor: 2.06; Game Time: 2:03:02

7/7/2012 2:06:30 PM (5.037)
-----------------------------------
Receiving AddInboundWave from AI Thread at Game Time: 2:03:02
WaveSize factor: 2.06
Raw Units Dictionary Entries:
ArmorShipII => 18
ZenithViralShredderII => 19
FighterII => 25
BomberII => 13
YounglingTigerII => 25
AutocannonMinipodII => 19
MissileShipII => 24
SpaceTankII => 22
BomberStarship => 1
Flagship => 1
DreadnoughtII => 1
ArmorShipIII => 2
ZenithViralShredderIII => 2
FighterIII => 2
BomberIII => 1
YounglingTigerIII => 2
AutocannonMinipodIII => 2
Cruiser => 2
SpaceTankIII => 2

Keith, something's not riiiiiight here...

Quote
Nuanced the new wave-time-calculation rule added in the last version such that it is not in effect at the very beginning, and gradually phases in so that it is fully in effect at the two-hour mark. So at the 30 minute mark it has about 25% impact, giving you a chance to expand the number of "entry points" before the AI starts throwing max time waves at you automatically. Thanks to Wanderer for reporting a test game where this rule rather... decisively concluded the game early.

Grandma was happily cruising along until she fell asleep on the gas pedal.  Posting this for now at 2:03 with the wave inbound so I can post around.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2012, 07:16:23 PM »
So, since it really doesn't matter to the game, I'm where I'm supposed to be (the bug isn't that I'm getting hit with a big wave, it's that they were so small for so long, basically gave me a break)... lock'n'load.

Oh gods... Please finish the AoE turret rebuilds in ti... C'MON!  How much frickin' power does the base set need?  More Human Home Settlements go dark.  It's FREEZING in there!... oh, heh, MK II/III spare reactors still not finished on Blackstone.  That'd do it.

One FF up and AoE's in place.  Luckily it's coming from Matrix, not Eridani, or I'd be scroooooood.  Alpha strike from the wave MELTS the single FF protecting the AoEs.  Ow.  Also, there is no more threat out there, it all came back to play.  After alpha strikes it's 823 enemy ships.

So, the wave is pretty quickly whittled to 200 or so ships.  The mine run was WELL worth it, as it seems the majority of ships are either trying to head for Cisko or Eridani.  Woot woot rock on!  Need to stuff some gravs into the mine run.

I finally get some Human Freedom Fighters, too.  37 of each come to support Blackstone long after anyone cared.  However!  This could be very helpful if they go attack Eridani for me.  I send over the Raids from homeworld just in case these guys intend to be helpful.  My fleet, however, is tattered.  Most of the humans head for Cisko or Matrix, however.  Well, whatever.  The 12 that went for Eridani were at least distracting enough for me to get scouts into play on Eridani.  Now, where is that Warp Gate in this mess... Oh, crap, there's an EMP on Eridani... which the Humans probably won't hit.  I hope.

The Fort III is RIGHT on top of the CC... which has the AI Eye.  Oh, that's just lovely.

The raids make a suicide run at the Warp Gate (through the Mass Drivers) with the humans doing distraction.  None of them make it home but they DO pop the Warp Gate.  AIP: 58.  Whipping Boy: Set nicely.

... ... ...

and I realize I just FOULED UP.  Dumbass.  For Hot Sauce to have been a whipping boy Eridani needed a warp gate.  Sonofa... well, nothing for it now.  Looks like I'll end up moving the 'triple defense' up towards the Strana/Tau/Eridani triangle.  Well, a little bit of 'running room' won't hurt in the long run.

The humans, in a wonderful show of suicide, have split up all over the place, with the majority (20) of them on Cisko.  12 are up on Hot Sauce raising havoc and only 6 are left on Eridani.

Hmmm.  Dead FF, no salvage... Oh, right, that's the NEXT version. 

I have an econ problem.  With the whipping boy not up it's just going to keep draining resources because it won't be able to stop waves, so it will never get up.  I'm at the edge of an economic spiral.  Need to do something about that.  Anyone seen any distribution nodes around here?

Great, one on Flamethrower... which is Eye'd and has dual Mass Drivers.  Do I have anything sneaky?  No, no I don't.  Do I have anything cheap and FAST?  Why, yes I do.  Fighters to the rescue!  Cool, not a trojan.  While they're there they attempt to pop one of the mass drivers and fail miserably, though they do donate themselves due to leech starship to the AI's cause.  Thanks guys.

That cured the problem nicely.  With the whipping boy better built and able to place the rest of the Laser Is, I can finally let it stay awhile and listen kill something.  Now, the fleet heads home for R&R finally and maybe we can finally do something about Eridani.

Next wave is 656 ships.  That seems more reasonable.  The AoE's are up to 4 FFs now, lets see if they can get off two salvos before a meltdown.  The fleet's not in a position to support so... we'll see what happens.  AIP is... *facepalm*... AIP is 60 and I'm getting back to backs with 1 minute spread.  656 and 828.  Fleet's moving to help!

Alpha-strikes don't melt the FFs this time, took them to roughly half, but the entire Basic Turret battery is flattened.  They lost... errr... 250 ships or so? in the alpha.  Oddly, the Frigs/Fighters/Beams are all heading down the 'turret' run towards the CC, while the bombers are riding along the mined path.  Shortly the Laser and MRM Batteries are also flattened... and the second wave is prepping to land in 5... 4...

The first wave was deflected by pure turret.  The second one ended up fleet on fleet with turret support about at the LRMs (which I put at max-range to inbound wormhole).  The fleet was hiding in the grav wells to make sure the shredders couldn't come into play and so I could semi-micro the Maws without worrying about chasers (Tigers in particular).

Feeling obnoxious, the AI sends ANOTHER wave at me while I'm still working on the second one.  This is merely a 146 ship wave but I'm starting to wonder if one of these AI's likes to play the support role.  That literally shouldn't happen, it's not max-time.

My fleet is starting to convert to enemy ships due to a leech.  I immediately yank them out of combat and they run for the Cisko wormhole to come back again without parasites.  Meanwhile 146 ships are still making their way towards the base and the last few turrets are doing what they can (along with 57 snipers) to finish off the inbound onslaught.  The second wave obliterated all the AoE turrets and FFs so that's going to need a rebuild, too.

I REALLY need to find a Data Center.  Time to open up Scout IIs and begin production.  I send them up along the Earth-Craps choke first to see if there's any serious threats in the choke-hold so I can plan for it now.  The fleet itself was rebuilt and is stationed on Blackstone for now.

Earth and Craps are Peacemaker planets, thus Mass Drivers.  Both also have Eyes.  Oh, that's sweet.  Getting out of my corner of the universe is going to be a bit painful.  Third CoP found on Three Kings, in the center south.  Also a Peacemaker planet packing an Eye (c'mon, dude...) and a Fort II.  ARS found on Kerensky, okay, that'll help.  Painful to get in there, but it'll help. 

Eridani's at 400 ships and climbing.  I'm pretty sure I could bring my ENTIRE FLEET in and not wake it.  So I do.  Well, I was right, kinda.  While my bombers traveled to start engaging the Fort III that's sitting on this planet, they popped a guardpost.  THAT woke everyone up.  The rest of the fleet runs. I leave the Bombers to die and try to do some damage on their way out.  I get one of the Mass Drivers down with them, too, but the other one's under glass.  Oh how cute.  Realizing my suiciders woke an EMP they try to kill that too.

The term: YOU FAIL! comes to mind.  They got it to 32% but it wasn't enough.  I pull the main fleet off Blackstone in anticipation of the inbound EMP.  Just in time, too, it hits and the fleet does an immediate U-Turn.  They're barely able to protect the Ion III and Command Station until the FFs come back on, but they pull it off.  They're in tatters, but successful.

I REALLY need to pop that Eye, or the defenses at Blackstone will constantly be under threat of the short-range wormhole.  Yeah, I know, I could leave it up for Hot Sauce but it's just too dangerous right now.  Most of Eridani though emptied out.  They're down to 90 ships now.  I send in the Raids.  First stop: Mass Driver.  With two left and both of them mostly dead, the Mass Driver falls and the Raids run for Homeworld.  Econ's on the floor again.

My scouts, however, have found a Fact IV and Data Center up at Riker.  It's along the north road and then into the Southern Center, but it's a start.  I have to go through a Peacemaker planet though to get at it.  My poor raids.  Oh well, Go boys Go!  Had to detour the Raids around a Fortress, too.  Only one raid made it to Riker... and he didn't survive the wormhole stack.  I've got a ton of guardians heading down to Misery now, though.  Did I neglect to mention that Riker's a MK IV world?  Yeah.  Bunch of MK IV Guardians inbound... and head to Blackstone instead of Misery.  Well, alright then.  Silly critters.

At 2:46, ~1000 ship wave heads for Blackstone.  I let it have its head, I want to see what the defenses can do and my fleet is STILL rebuilding.  Were it not for the timely arrival of 144 Human Freedom Fighters, Blackstone would not only have fallen, but my DF dwarves would have been engraving its death for years to come.  Blackstone Cannot Hold.

Crap.  Let's see, what else can I do to ... 'eh, why not.  Here, have a few dozen tractor beams.

With them utterly NOT built yet, and the entire turret array in tatters... another 1000 ship wave is announced.  The fleet, who originally were going to go deal with a bit of threat over in Green Lantern, heads for Blackstone.

A carrier.  With 21 ships. Not that bad.

We clean up that wave.  I'm beat.  I've got nothing left for Blackstone.  The fleet is obliterated, the turrets are wrecked. I have no economy, it's floored.  Most of what's left of my fleet is engine damaged and can't get repairs.  Did I mention I lost nearly all my generators in Blackstone, too?

Somehow, though, I have 3 Raid SSs.

2:52:  511 ship CPA.

(sigh)  I need to pull a rabbit out of... well... somewhere.

I need that Data Center, and I need it NOW.  I grab my 3 Raid SSs and bring 50 fighters along for an escort.  Breaking out of the mini-threatball in Green Lantern, the Raids book it while the Fighters return home.  They make it with two of them this time.  AIP 44.  That gives me a fighting chance.

The Raids are dead if they head for home, too many mass drivers.  I sic 'em on a tach post or two and let them suicide. 

Wow, what a difference.  408 ship attack to Blackstone.  To quote John Chriton: "We're so screwed."  I believe when I mentioned exponential increases I also mentioned LOWERING the low end of the effect... well, I wanted MOAR.  GOD DAMN, I've gotten MOAR!

Oh, wow, Dist node on Hot Sauce... and I've got jack-all that can get to it.  FRAK. Fighter run?  Fighter run... soon.  Only got 32 atm.

Wave defense went... alright, considering I had maybe 80 turrets up.  What really got me hosed up was a few MK IV guardians that the Data Center run freed up.

I sic a half-cap of Fighters into Hot Sauce and have them assault the Distribution Node... and hit a trojan.  AIP is now at 46 from Time increases and Dist Node destruction. Great.  The fighters die to Raptor abuse.

CPA was released.  All MK II.  They're were threatballing in Eridani but eventually hit critical mass and went for Blackstone.  Still having over 400 threat out there, a 403 ship wave announces for Blackstone.  I still have no fleet, even after shutting off starship construction.

Short range wave, came in from Eridani.  The Ion III saves my bacon, along with the Maws under glass... 2 minutes later, another 401 ship wave announces.  Short range again, too... not that it matter, most of the turrets are dead anyway and the AoE's wouldn't even have a chance to come into play.

3:10 Game time:

"They must have been scraping the bottom of the barrel when they made YOU commander."

That's the beginning of the end....

... I watch as the swarm runs into homeworld. Homeworld of its grav nets, semi-constructed fleet, and 40 Laser/Mrm/LRM 60 Sniper 70 Basics.  As the AI swarm crashes into the Homeworld I figure I'm just waiting for the big kaboom...

... and the defending fleets watch as 3 maws get popped and add more enemies to the flow... that's it, I'm sure... of... it...

... or not?

Game time: 3:12.
I only have the homeworld, but it's sound.  Threat: 66.

Hunh.  Painful as hell but I survived the CPA on top of the heavy waves.  I MIGHT be able to get back to Blackstone and re-setup the whipping boy.  It's a small fleet but it's what I've got.  I've already got a transport built, just need a colony ship and ship over the transport with support fleet.  I lost the Ion III but that actually could work in my favor, I could reposition the CC and force EVERYTHING down the mined path... as well as get off the Eridani wormhole.

Eridani, meanwhile, was basically obliterated (there's one post left under glass) by those human resistance fighters earlier.

Alright, fine... "I'm not dead yet!  C'mere!  I'll gnaw yer legs off!"

Saving the game and shutting down for now.  I need to think on this.  That tantrum economic spiral basically laid waste to me for a while.  Want to see if I can puzzle out some workarounds.  Shame I can't just go engrave the dining room.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline zharmad

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2012, 10:05:09 PM »
Well, for what it's worth I've gone and updated the wiki on those Polarizer damage calcs. They actually look rather nice on paper...

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2012, 10:37:09 PM »
A lot of the Polarizer's bad press came from when they were bugged to do very little damage against armor 0 targets if I recall.  Like they ignored the minimum multiplier and got x1 instead.  And a lot of stuff doesn't have armor.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2012, 01:37:32 AM »
Alright, now that the tree trimmers are gone and I can stop worrying about them falling out of my 30 foot palm trees...
It's always the cloaked one you don't notice.

Quote
The new alteration to not force max-time waves in the early game (I'm at 1:40, so I'm getting close to it) is working nicely.
It was actually acting like you had a bunch of entry points all the time due to my... "questionable" implementation of getting the entry point count.  That's fixed in 5.038 along with some related things so it will both actually be a gradual ramp up (in potential; it can still just roll the equivalent of a natural 20 and hammer you) and will be harder on fewer-entry-point setups.  Yes, that means that grandma could wind up flooring it harder in that Mac truck headed for your homeworld...

Quote
Hot Sauce I intend to eventually claim as a 'splitter' whipping boy, to keep max-time waves down.
I suggest giving the logs a look (in 5.038+) in a before/after sort of way to see how much impact it has on the potential difference in the wave-time modifiers; it should give you the relevant numbers now.  My guess is that while the 2-entry-point setup will prevent the AI from getting a bonus to its maximum possible wave-time modifier (a worthwhile goal), it will still send pretty hefty waves.

Quote
Guess I can read Dwarf Fortress Urist McDumbass stories... :)

Or....  Noooot.
A Vile Force Of Darkness Has Arrived!

Receiving AddInboundWave from AI Thread at Game Time: 2:03:02
WaveSize factor: 0.58
Raw Units Dictionary Entries:
Elephants => 35
Skeletal Elephants => 35
Magma Carp Riding Skeletal Elephants => 32
Holistic Detective => 1

Quote
I believe when I mentioned exponential increases I also mentioned LOWERING the low end of the effect...
Yea, players do things like that from time to time ;)

Quote
Game time: 3:12.
I only have the homeworld, but it's sound.
A desperate, running, barely successful defense. I like those ;)

Quote
Shame I can't just go engrave the dining room.
You should see what the mess hall on the home command station winds up looking like by the end of a campaign... or maybe not.
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2012, 04:26:11 AM »
Silva's win inspired me... though really, I think Sonnen lost instead of Silva winning.  I whiff, I fall down, come hit me!  *shakes head*

Anyway...  Oh, look, an update.  Here we go.

I build off a Colony ship, get whatever fleet I have (about 200 ships) to escort, and they head to Blackstone with the Colony protected by a Transport.

Enroute, a wave announces.  Well, I've got a CPA style wave inbound, but oddly... it's only 291 ships.  I guess things really HAD gotten more fouled up than expected, either that or entry points = 0 the 900:1500 range is a little kinder.

With a Mil I going up on Blackstone wiating on the attack, and rebuilding beginning with the Mil I waaaaay off on the edge now forcing the enemy down the mine-chute to get at it, I'll start moving the rebuilding turrets into position for better 'stoppage' after we get defenses up in general and I've got some economy again.

Meanwhile, said wave is heading for Misery and is landing on the built defenses.  If we can't stop it there we're screwed anyway, so fuggit.  Of course, a MK IV guardian decides to help out on the Misery assault. 

3:19.  Misery wave is deflected, threat: 43.  Blackstone is rebuilding VERY SLOWLY.

3:30.
1,345 ships to Blackstone.  AIP 47.  WHAT THE HELL?!

Code: [Select]

7/7/2012 4:03:38 PM (5.037)
-----------------------------------
Starting CreateMixedWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 3:07:07 ; Player.AIType: The_Tank ; Player.AIDifficulty: 10 ; AIProgressionLevel: 46 ; AITechLevel: 2
WaveSize = MultiplierFromWaveInterval * MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetCount: 1.01 * 1 = 1.01
aiTypeBasedAIPIncrement : 0
since difficulty >= 8, effectiveAIP = floor( ( AIProgressionLevel * 0.8 ) ^ 1.1 ) : 52
workingShips = ( effectiveAIP * player.AIDifficulty ) / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) : 173.33
workingShips *= FInt.FromParts( 0, AILoop.Instance.AIRandom.Next( 800, 1100 ) ) : 155.48
workingShips = Max(workingShips,34 * handicap_multiplier) :155.48
Inside AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, multiplier: 1
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, workingShips :155.48
numberShips = workingShips.IntValue :155
numberTech123 = numberShips - numberDefensive - numberExplosive - numberCore :155


7/7/2012 10:17:43 PM (5.038)
-----------------------------------
Starting CreateMixedWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 3:14:18 ; Player.AIType: Peacemaker ; Player.AIDifficulty: 10 ; AIProgressionLevel: 46 ; AITechLevel: 2
WaveSize = MultiplierFromWaveInterval * MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetCount: 0.85 * 1 = 0.85
aiTypeBasedAIPIncrement : 0
since difficulty >= 8, effectiveAIP = floor( ( AIProgressionLevel * 0.8 ) ^ 1.1 ) : 52
workingShips = ( effectiveAIP * player.AIDifficulty ) / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) : 173.33
workingShips *= FInt.FromParts( 0, AILoop.Instance.AIRandom.Next( 800, 1100 ) ) : 175.41
workingShips = Max(workingShips,34 * handicap_multiplier) :175.41
Inside AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, multiplier: 1
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, workingShips :175.41
numberShips = workingShips.IntValue :175
numberTech123 = numberShips - numberDefensive - numberExplosive - numberCore :175


7/8/2012 12:28:16 AM (5.038)
-----------------------------------
Starting CreateMixedWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 3:30:38 ; Player.AIType: The_Tank ; Player.AIDifficulty: 10 ; AIProgressionLevel: 47 ; AITechLevel: 2
WaveSize = MultiplierFromWaveInterval * MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetCount: 1.96 * 1 = 1.96
aiTypeBasedAIPIncrement : 0
since difficulty >= 8, effectiveAIP = floor( ( AIProgressionLevel * 0.8 ) ^ 1.1 ) : 54
workingShips = ( effectiveAIP * player.AIDifficulty ) / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) : 180
workingShips *= FInt.FromParts( 0, AILoop.Instance.AIRandom.Next( 800, 1100 ) ) : 173.32
workingShips = Max(workingShips,34 * handicap_multiplier) :173.32
Inside AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, multiplier: 1
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, workingShips :173.32
numberShips = workingShips.IntValue :173

Code: [Select]
7/8/2012 12:28:15 AM (5.038)
-----------------------------------
Triggering Normal Wave for player 8; wave size factor: 1.96
-because Diff >= 7 and entry_points = 1 and game time > 2 hours, wave time modifier range is 900:1500
; Game Time: 3:30:39

7/8/2012 12:28:16 AM (5.038)
-----------------------------------
Receiving AddInboundWave from AI Thread at Game Time: 3:30:39
WaveSize factor: 1.96
Raw Units Dictionary Entries:
AutocannonMinipodII => 157
AIRaidStarship => 2
DreadnoughtII => 1
AutocannonMinipodIII => 16


7/8/2012 12:28:16 AM (5.038)
-----------------------------------
Performing first CheckWave with size factor of 1.96 on wave at Game Time: 3:30:39

<snip snip>

Wave total ships: 1345
TypesForDirectAdd count by type:
AutocannonMinipodII => 1000
AIRaidStarship => 1
DreadnoughtII => 1
TypesForCarrierAdd count by type:
AutocannonMinipodII => 245
AutocannonMinipodIII => 98

Oh, Autocannons.  No biggie.

However, this whole variable firepower thing on the Carriers is a bit... off.  Waves like this (imagine younglings!) are really going to screw with the firepower.  For some reason I doubt SSBs and Maws are going to end up in the carriers.

Well, even 'just autocannons', they tore up Blackstone pretty good coming in at the short wormhole and not meeting the AoE battery.  they trashed the rebuilding reactors and ripped up the middle turrets pretty solid.  I ended up in a -60,000 energy brownout.  Turning off a ton of stuff managed to get me to -22,940 and get the FFs back on.  Lousy Siege Starship...  321 units in a carrier weren't helping.  Blackstone fell down again, but most of the turrets survived, so at least the econ wasn't 'wasted'.

3:40: Still rebuilding, Mil I going BACK up on Blackstone...

3:45  Blackstone's rebuilt, fleet's rebuilding, and I start building up Raid SSs again.  I also start to move turrets into a more optimal position.  Energy is very tight.

3:45:25: 916 ships to Blackstone...
Code: [Select]
Wave total ships: 916
TypesForDirectAdd count by type:
MissileShipII => 207
FighterII => 226
RaptorII => 209
BomberII => 155
ZenithBeamFrigateII => 60
Flagship => 1
BomberStarship => 1
Cruiser => 14
FighterIII => 14
RaptorIII => 16
BomberIII => 9
ZenithBeamFrigateIII => 4
TypesForCarrierAdd count by type:


AIP is 47.  Why did I hit that Data Center again?  I send the fleet (nearly rebuilt) over to Blackstone to help.  Need to try to avoid the econ spiral again.  no turrets have moved yet, I've been waiting to actually have positive econ for once... and of course it's a 'short WH' attack again.  GODDAMMIT.  They blew the Mil I AGAIN.  -125,000 K in power.

I find out there's only one problem with rebuilding your stations in Blackstone in the new version.  Without supply, your rebuilders DON'T WORK.  d'oh.  most of the fleet's wrecked, but I've got Raids.  One guardpost left to go in Eridani and I can get the whipping boy 'aligned' to not have to deal with the short-assaults anymore.  No Joy, lost all 3 raids and the AI Anti-starship Arachnid Guard Post II is at 19%.  Dangit... if it wasn't under glass....

Another Raid run later, and I can finally push all the waves to the farthest point and get the AoEs into play.  Suddenly I CAN stop 950 ship waves without losing EVERYTHING.  Whatta ya know. 

At 4:11 I'm finally starting to gain econ again.  Fleet's rebuilt, Blackstone is whole.  AIP is 48.

This is nuts.  I need to completely rethink my strategy.  MOAR is kicking my arse.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2012, 05:12:47 AM »
This is nuts.  I need to completely rethink my strategy.  MOAR is kicking my arse.
I'm pretty sure that was either what you wanted, or Keiths plan all along :P
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2012, 04:23:44 PM »
Without supply, your rebuilders DON'T WORK.

Pretty sure that is intentional. That way, planets adjacent to your "planet grid" can be rebuilt easier, and thus sort of "spread out" the rebuilding of your "planet network" as supply gets reestablished. But if you are trying to maintain a satellite system, and you lose it, it is supposed to be tricky and risky to get that rebuilt.

That said, colony vessels should probably be allowed to build the command station on top of command station remains. (Come to think of it, why can't you place a command station on top of another command station if both are owned by the same player?)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2012, 06:25:56 PM »
Oh, Autocannons.  No biggie.
Yea, they're like Krystal/Whitecastle burgers.

Quote
However, this whole variable firepower thing on the Carriers is a bit... off.  Waves like this (imagine younglings!) are really going to screw with the firepower.  For some reason I doubt SSBs and Maws are going to end up in the carriers.
Yea, sometimes it will be more dangerous than others, that's another reason I used an attack value a lot lower than a normal-cap ship would be likely to actually do.

Quote
I find out there's only one problem with rebuilding your stations in Blackstone in the new version.  Without supply, your rebuilders DON'T WORK.
Oops, unintentional consequences :)  Rebuilders will work outside supply in 5.039; having thought about it I can't think of any really cheesy exploits from allowing it (given that getting supply isn't all that hard if you really want it, and that most rebuildable stuff needs supply to function).  If it proves exploitable, I may need to look into alternatives.

Quote
This is nuts.  I need to completely rethink my strategy.  MOAR is kicking my arse.
It's not all that moar.  But the wave-time thing is pretty brutal in the econ-spiral sense: previously you just had to hold on until it tossed you a few softballs out of sheer random chance, and you could rebuild a bit.
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