Author Topic: Rematch - Keith's Revenge  (Read 9947 times)

Offline Wanderer

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Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« on: July 06, 2012, 07:09:06 AM »
So, anyone who followed the Nine through Ten slope knows what's coming... Keith's Rematch.

Now, let's play fair.

First, hrm, what achievements am I missing still... 100 planet map?  Errr, no, not this game.

Sledge Hammer could get VERY interesting... Hmmmm....

D'oh, I still never beat any of my Assassin/Bully games?  Well, that'll answer that.

AI 10/10 Assassin/Bully

Let's make the colors cool... Grey for the Assassin cloaked in the night, pink for the Bully since he's a little [email protected]

Map size, map size... Since I'm not trying to do this 5 times in a row, let's get one a bit fatter and not quite so constrained... 60 planets... hrm... simple?  I definately want multiple entry points so I can test out the new timer mechanic... speaking of, I need to clear my wavelog files... might as well empty 'em all, actually, so it's clean slate.

That file list is getting a bit long there, a button for 'log resets' would be nice.

Where was I?  Oh, right, looking to get a 3 entry backyard.  Hrm.

click... click... click... oooh?  Nooo... click... click... oooh?  dangit... click... click... click...

Oooooh, now that's got possibilities...  Got me a nice Maw, a bit of a tail for emergency planets, a 3 way linking entry for patrolling support... okay, I'm sold.  Besides, curious how these maws work now too.  Seed: 60 planet simple 203191274.  Play along if you want to. :)

Now, let's see, who do I want to fire up for this rematch?  Heh, WHOOPS!  Almost left CSGs off!  Bad Wanderer.

Ships: Everything Complex.
Game Options: Normal/Normal/High/Full/No Cheats/Show Unexplored
AI Options:
I do love me my Colony Rebellions... and I think I'm gonna need 'em.  They're definately in, 4/10.

Hmmm... Resistance Fighters?  Yeah, I'll probably need the backup.  4/10

Zenith Traitors?  They ain't fixed yet... do I want the AIP boosts they give the AI or do I want to forego the Trader Toys?  It took me most of a game to really get them setup last time.  You know what, they can sit out a game or ten.  Maybe 20.

Dyson... oh, my friend the Dyson.  No love this game old friend.  We do this heads up.  No dyson.

Miners no... Cookie Monster hells no... Golems? Hm, get back to you.

The entire Neinzul ensemble can go fly a kite somewhere, FS?  Kinda defeats the purpose here.  Civvie Leaders?  Hm, that's an interesting idea.  Could I survive the minute 1 doubling of the waves though?  errr... (checks wiki).  These foul-mouthed little fegs already get a +20 AIP EACH to the waves... and a 1.25 multiplier... you know, I'm actually cranking the difficulty up with that alone.  Yeah, no Civvies.

Spirecraft can go rot until they get some balancing going on.

So, Golems.  Hm.  Golems are Golems Hard if I take them.  Three way defense against Exo waves with no attrition points?  You know, lets just see what happens.

End result: Human colony rebellions and resistance fighters only, 4/10 each.

Modifiers: Schizo and Reveal Random AI Types.  I won't cheese the Schizo on attrition worlds... yet.  If I do I'll do it the old fasioned way, blow their dang warp gates up.

AI Plots: None.



OH, NICE!  I don't have to swap to the main map screen anymore to keep from scrolling for four years while I type on the other screen if I need to use the mouse.  That's some sweetsauce.

So, home planet is Misery.  I'm not sitting on top of a wormhole, good starter system. 5/8 m/c planet.  Alright, I said good, not great.

Gimme a second to detangle this thing.... errr, alright, a few seconds...  Okay, SERIOUSLY!?  What kitten played with THIS damned ball of yarn?

Yeesh, 15 minutes later... and that's the best I came up with?  Well, at least I can see it now.



So, there's a 4 planet tail hanging off Green Lantern, and Cisko's my other border world.  Prior to contact with the enemy, I'm expecting a 3 world wave defense at Green Lantern, Hot Sauce, and Blackstone.  Hot Sauce will be 'disposable', the majority of of defenses will be at Blackstone and Green Lantern.  If things get ultra-hairy I push through to Earth and lock down the inbounds there.

I expect the AIs will be at Lyran/Confederation/Skye, annnnnnnnnd... somewhere around Hoth in the direct center top, or down around Mantis.  You know, I'm really not sure WHERE that other one's going to be.  It's going to be annoying no matter what.

Standard start: Econ harvester III/III + Grav Is and Adv Warp Sensor.  Build off a Science II, Warp Sensor, and get the main dock fired up with a 50 fighter/5 bomb/5 Frig/1 maw build cyclical build.  Power down the Merc Dock.  Drop a short-range web of Gravs near the station (2 deep for now). 10 Engi Is on autobuild and 2 rebuilders.

You know, I'd thought pink and grey were going to be easier to tell apart...  Stupid red outlines.

Let's see who's got one.  Bullyboy's got Beam Frigs and...  errr... not sure yet (Autocannon Minipods, I find out eventually).  Assassin's got Tele Stations (joy) and... again, not sure yet.  Knew I forgot something, fire up Scout Is 10 at a time.

Keep hitting space to unpause.  This is going to get ugly with DF controls screwing me up.  Heck with that, setting it to Pause on Space Bar instead of the pause key I *never* use on my keyboard.

Oh, nice, there's a P- Armor Booster next door in Cisko.  Luckily that's only a single planet affector.  5 posts along with it, one's a spireshield.  Ugh, need bombers.

GL's got 8 guardposts, and a spire shield too... 2/4 world though, that's nice.  Alright, Bomber II first unlock.

2 outs:
Shawshank(4/3): nothing special. 
Blackstone(1/3):  AI Eye, Co-P, Ion III, pair of Spire Shields... Alright, seriously?  That's ugly.  Gonna take a bit to break into that one.
Flamethrower (0/0): AI Eye (sigh)... and a single SF post holding it up.  0/0 world too.  Well, that's a pass.  Might swing through and simply blow the eye/warp though... it'll wait until I take Blackstone however.
Matrix (1/4): Nothing special, bunch of posts.
Strana (1/4): Nothing incredible but it's got an Armor Inhibitor on it.  That could make for some TASTY assistance deflecting waves.  I might move up eventually... or not, it's on an inbound wormhole.  Depends on if I take Eridani.
Tau (0/3): Tiny world, not a lot on it.
Hot Sauce (2/3): Ai EYe, Fort II, Spire shield III, ... MK III world... yeah, that's gonna wait a bit. ARS though!  Glad I looked at the stealthed ships (still trying to figure out the last 'bonus' ship).  It must be under a stealth guardpost.
Eridani (4/4): Nothing special, Stealth hiding in here somewhere.  Nice world for resources though.
Draconis (4/3): ARS too.  Also a Counterstrike II on it.  General annoyances otherwise.  Parasite Fab V though.  That could be handy for the defender worlds.

During scouting/build I setup lines of grav Is from both wormholes towards the command center.  I drop an extra FF on the Cmd Center/Home stations too, primarily as protections for the cryo pods.  I also drop a FF on each inbound gate to cover the maws.

I'm still not sure what Assassin's extra ship is at this point, they may BOTH be minipods for all I know.

First wave is 251 ships, landing at 8:10 in.  That's a HUGE diff from the little 100-120s I got last time for opening strikes.  That +20 makes a huge difference.  Well, we'll give it a go.  I won't have the fleet ready though, it looks like.  I'm stalled up here somewhere.  I  have 100/70/65/5 when the attack lands.  No turrets but gravs.  Let's see how it plays out.

The enemy TEARS the single ff I had protecting the Maws down.  I quickly got them to max range.  One of them got quick-popped by Frigs + Bomber SS.  There's a light mix of MK IIIs in this wave, too.  Holy cripes.  However, for special ships, it's confirmed, Assassin is Teleporters and Minipods.  I sic the Fighter bank on the Bomber SS to help protect the maws, and the bombers go Siege hunting.  The maws nerf is... um... well effective is about the nicest thing I can say about it.

Midfight I start putting up turret defenses.  I'm going to need the backup.  There's no way fleet only will hold right now.  God help those longer waves, too... you know, a curiousity...  Did the timer mods affect first wave?

Nope, Size Factor 1.  No opening wave boost.  Just... Nasty.

For those curious:
Code: [Select]
7/6/2012 2:45:48 AM (5.036)
-----------------------------------
Starting CreateMixedWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 0:06:39 ; Player.AIType: Assassin ; Player.AIDifficulty: 10 ; AIProgressionLevel: 10 ; AITechLevel: 2
WaveSize = MultiplierFromWaveInterval * MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetCount: 1 * 1 = 1
aiTypeBasedAIPIncrement : 20
since difficulty >= 8, effectiveAIP = floor( ( AIProgressionLevel * 0.8 ) ^ 1.1 ) : 32
workingShips = ( effectiveAIP * player.AIDifficulty ) / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) : 106.67
workingShips *= FInt.FromParts( 0, AILoop.Instance.AIRandom.Next( 800, 1100 ) ) : 94.27
workingShips = Min(workingShips,34 * handicap_multiplier) :94.27
Inside AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, multiplier: 1.25
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, workingShips :117.84
numberShips = workingShips.IntValue :117
numberTech123 = numberShips - numberDefensive - numberExplosive - numberCore :117

Code: [Select]
7/6/2012 2:45:48 AM (5.036)
-----------------------------------
Triggering Normal Wave for player 8; wave size factor: 1; Game Time: 0:06:40

7/6/2012 2:45:48 AM (5.036)
-----------------------------------
Receiving AddInboundWave from AI Thread at Game Time: 0:06:40
WaveSize factor: 1
Raw Units Dictionary Entries:
MissileShipII => 29
BomberII => 25
FighterII => 20
DreadnoughtII => 2
TeleportBattleStationII => 23
AutocannonMinipodII => 16
BomberStarship => 1
Cruiser => 1
BomberIII => 1
FighterIII => 1
TeleportBattleStationIII => 1


7/6/2012 2:45:48 AM (5.036)
-----------------------------------
Performing first CheckWave with size factor of 1 on wave at Game Time: 0:06:40

CheckWave: populating count of MissileShipII with base magnitude of 29
numberUnits = kv.Value * this.WaveSize : 29
after applying the ship-type-specific cap multiplier (which includes the unit-cap-scale multiplier), numberUnits : 14.5
after applying UsefulnessInAIWaveMultiplier if any, numberUnits : 17.4
after applying Mark-based multiplier if any, numberUnits : 15.66
after applying at-least-one rule, numberUnits : 15.66
after applying difficulty-based multiplier (if <= 3 then 1, <= 4 : 1.5, <= 5 : 1.75, <= 6 : 2, <= 7 : 2.25, <= 9 : 2.5, <= 9.3 : 2.75, <= 9.6 : 3, <= 9.8 : 3.8, 10 : 4.5), numberUnits : 70.46
numberUnitsInt = numberUnits.IntValue : 70
skipping at-least-effective-ship-cap-rule due to multiple non-starship types

CheckWave: populating count of BomberII with base magnitude of 25
numberUnits = kv.Value * this.WaveSize : 25
after applying the ship-type-specific cap multiplier (which includes the unit-cap-scale multiplier), numberUnits : 12.5
after applying UsefulnessInAIWaveMultiplier if any, numberUnits : 10
after applying Mark-based multiplier if any, numberUnits : 9
after applying at-least-one rule, numberUnits : 9
after applying difficulty-based multiplier (if <= 3 then 1, <= 4 : 1.5, <= 5 : 1.75, <= 6 : 2, <= 7 : 2.25, <= 9 : 2.5, <= 9.3 : 2.75, <= 9.6 : 3, <= 9.8 : 3.8, 10 : 4.5), numberUnits : 40.49
numberUnitsInt = numberUnits.IntValue : 40
skipping at-least-effective-ship-cap-rule due to multiple non-starship types

CheckWave: populating count of FighterII with base magnitude of 20
numberUnits = kv.Value * this.WaveSize : 20
after applying the ship-type-specific cap multiplier (which includes the unit-cap-scale multiplier), numberUnits : 10
after applying UsefulnessInAIWaveMultiplier if any, numberUnits : 12
after applying Mark-based multiplier if any, numberUnits : 10.8
after applying at-least-one rule, numberUnits : 10.8
after applying difficulty-based multiplier (if <= 3 then 1, <= 4 : 1.5, <= 5 : 1.75, <= 6 : 2, <= 7 : 2.25, <= 9 : 2.5, <= 9.3 : 2.75, <= 9.6 : 3, <= 9.8 : 3.8, 10 : 4.5), numberUnits : 48.59
numberUnitsInt = numberUnits.IntValue : 48
skipping at-least-effective-ship-cap-rule due to multiple non-starship types

CheckWave: populating count of DreadnoughtII with base magnitude of 2
numberUnits = kv.Value * this.WaveSize : 2
after applying the ship-type-specific cap multiplier (which includes the unit-cap-scale multiplier), numberUnits : 2
after applying UsefulnessInAIWaveMultiplier if any, numberUnits : 2
after applying Mark-based multiplier if any, numberUnits : 1.8
after applying at-least-one rule, numberUnits : 1.8
after applying difficulty-based multiplier (if <= 3 then 1, <= 4 : 1.5, <= 5 : 1.75, <= 6 : 2, <= 7 : 2.25, <= 9 : 2.5, <= 9.3 : 2.75, <= 9.6 : 3, <= 9.8 : 3.8, 10 : 4.5), numberUnits : 8.1
numberUnitsInt = numberUnits.IntValue : 8
it's a starship so only adding one rule : 1 (had you going there, didn't we)

CheckWave: populating count of TeleportBattleStationII with base magnitude of 23
numberUnits = kv.Value * this.WaveSize : 23
after applying the ship-type-specific cap multiplier (which includes the unit-cap-scale multiplier), numberUnits : 2.88
after applying UsefulnessInAIWaveMultiplier if any, numberUnits : 2.88
after applying Mark-based multiplier if any, numberUnits : 2.59
after applying at-least-one rule, numberUnits : 2.59
after applying difficulty-based multiplier (if <= 3 then 1, <= 4 : 1.5, <= 5 : 1.75, <= 6 : 2, <= 7 : 2.25, <= 9 : 2.5, <= 9.3 : 2.75, <= 9.6 : 3, <= 9.8 : 3.8, 10 : 4.5), numberUnits : 11.64
numberUnitsInt = numberUnits.IntValue : 11
skipping at-least-effective-ship-cap-rule due to multiple non-starship types

CheckWave: populating count of AutocannonMinipodII with base magnitude of 16
numberUnits = kv.Value * this.WaveSize : 16
after applying the ship-type-specific cap multiplier (which includes the unit-cap-scale multiplier), numberUnits : 16
after applying UsefulnessInAIWaveMultiplier if any, numberUnits : 16
after applying Mark-based multiplier if any, numberUnits : 14.4
after applying at-least-one rule, numberUnits : 14.4
after applying difficulty-based multiplier (if <= 3 then 1, <= 4 : 1.5, <= 5 : 1.75, <= 6 : 2, <= 7 : 2.25, <= 9 : 2.5, <= 9.3 : 2.75, <= 9.6 : 3, <= 9.8 : 3.8, 10 : 4.5), numberUnits : 64.79
numberUnitsInt = numberUnits.IntValue : 64
skipping at-least-effective-ship-cap-rule due to multiple non-starship types

CheckWave: populating count of BomberStarship with base magnitude of 1
numberUnits = kv.Value * this.WaveSize : 1
after applying the ship-type-specific cap multiplier (which includes the unit-cap-scale multiplier), numberUnits : 1
after applying UsefulnessInAIWaveMultiplier if any, numberUnits : 1
after applying Mark-based multiplier if any, numberUnits : 1.5
after applying at-least-one rule, numberUnits : 1.5
after applying difficulty-based multiplier (if <= 3 then 1, <= 4 : 1.5, <= 5 : 1.75, <= 6 : 2, <= 7 : 2.25, <= 9 : 2.5, <= 9.3 : 2.75, <= 9.6 : 3, <= 9.8 : 3.8, 10 : 4.5), numberUnits : 6.75
numberUnitsInt = numberUnits.IntValue : 6
it's a starship so only adding one rule : 1 (had you going there, didn't we)

CheckWave: populating count of Cruiser with base magnitude of 1
numberUnits = kv.Value * this.WaveSize : 1
after applying the ship-type-specific cap multiplier (which includes the unit-cap-scale multiplier), numberUnits : 0.5
after applying UsefulnessInAIWaveMultiplier if any, numberUnits : 0.6
after applying Mark-based multiplier if any, numberUnits : 0.42
after applying at-least-one rule, numberUnits : 1
after applying difficulty-based multiplier (if <= 3 then 1, <= 4 : 1.5, <= 5 : 1.75, <= 6 : 2, <= 7 : 2.25, <= 9 : 2.5, <= 9.3 : 2.75, <= 9.6 : 3, <= 9.8 : 3.8, 10 : 4.5), numberUnits : 4.5
numberUnitsInt = numberUnits.IntValue : 4
skipping at-least-effective-ship-cap-rule due to multiple non-starship types

CheckWave: populating count of BomberIII with base magnitude of 1
numberUnits = kv.Value * this.WaveSize : 1
after applying the ship-type-specific cap multiplier (which includes the unit-cap-scale multiplier), numberUnits : 0.5
after applying UsefulnessInAIWaveMultiplier if any, numberUnits : 0.4
after applying Mark-based multiplier if any, numberUnits : 0.28
after applying at-least-one rule, numberUnits : 1
after applying difficulty-based multiplier (if <= 3 then 1, <= 4 : 1.5, <= 5 : 1.75, <= 6 : 2, <= 7 : 2.25, <= 9 : 2.5, <= 9.3 : 2.75, <= 9.6 : 3, <= 9.8 : 3.8, 10 : 4.5), numberUnits : 4.5
numberUnitsInt = numberUnits.IntValue : 4
skipping at-least-effective-ship-cap-rule due to multiple non-starship types

CheckWave: populating count of FighterIII with base magnitude of 1
numberUnits = kv.Value * this.WaveSize : 1
after applying the ship-type-specific cap multiplier (which includes the unit-cap-scale multiplier), numberUnits : 0.5
after applying UsefulnessInAIWaveMultiplier if any, numberUnits : 0.6
after applying Mark-based multiplier if any, numberUnits : 0.42
after applying at-least-one rule, numberUnits : 1
after applying difficulty-based multiplier (if <= 3 then 1, <= 4 : 1.5, <= 5 : 1.75, <= 6 : 2, <= 7 : 2.25, <= 9 : 2.5, <= 9.3 : 2.75, <= 9.6 : 3, <= 9.8 : 3.8, 10 : 4.5), numberUnits : 4.5
numberUnitsInt = numberUnits.IntValue : 4
skipping at-least-effective-ship-cap-rule due to multiple non-starship types

CheckWave: populating count of TeleportBattleStationIII with base magnitude of 1
numberUnits = kv.Value * this.WaveSize : 1
after applying the ship-type-specific cap multiplier (which includes the unit-cap-scale multiplier), numberUnits : 0.13
after applying UsefulnessInAIWaveMultiplier if any, numberUnits : 0.13
after applying Mark-based multiplier if any, numberUnits : 0.09
after applying at-least-one rule, numberUnits : 1
after applying difficulty-based multiplier (if <= 3 then 1, <= 4 : 1.5, <= 5 : 1.75, <= 6 : 2, <= 7 : 2.25, <= 9 : 2.5, <= 9.3 : 2.75, <= 9.6 : 3, <= 9.8 : 3.8, 10 : 4.5), numberUnits : 4.5
numberUnitsInt = numberUnits.IntValue : 4
skipping at-least-effective-ship-cap-rule due to multiple non-starship types

Wave total ships: 251
TypesForDirectAdd count by type:
MissileShipII => 70
BomberII => 40
FighterII => 48
DreadnoughtII => 1
TeleportBattleStationII => 11
AutocannonMinipodII => 64
BomberStarship => 1
Cruiser => 4
BomberIII => 4
FighterIII => 4
TeleportBattleStationIII => 4
TypesForCarrierAdd count by type:

The second wave, 218 ships, announces before I'm done with the first one.  This one's coming in the other wormhole.  I get more Long Range turrets going (Sniper and LRM).  Up to 20 of both now.  Bomber fleet's ruined, rest of the fleet's not exactly feeling healthy.

Science up some Tachyon Emitters and Bomber IIs.  Build off a token set of Tachyon's for now, but don't start on BII's yet.

Interesting, Bullyboy's got Autocannons and Zenith Beams.  So, they're sharing a special.  Well, alrighty then.  This wave's packing a flagship and a raid.  Can deal with those easily enough.  I need the enemy to 'spread' a bit to keep the Maws out of the Frigate's way though right now.  I'm micro'ing them at edge as best I can.  D'oh, THAT's the other ship!  CRAP... Raptors.  No Grav defenses for me!  Those Autocannons were leftovers.  LOL, They're swallow immune, too.

I WILL NEVER USE PINK AGAIN, I PROMISE!!!!  Can't tell the difference easily enough between their ships and my own on FRD.  Had the same problem with Yellow.  Is there a way to alter the AI color after you've started a game?  This is going to get annoying DAMN fast.

Okay, verdict after that defense: Maws still good, just no longer OP.  You MUST micro though or you're gonna get them hosed.

Now rebuilding fleet at 14:20.  Took a massive beating there... and I need to find a way to counter Raptors and Teleporters.  They WOULD get one of my favorite units, wouldn't they.  Gonna be a lot of wormhole blocks, I should plan on FF investments now.

Well, I'm going to need an econ and a spare whip relatively quickly here.  Need the fleet up and running though.  going to start with Green Lantern for the 2/4 I believe.  It'll help me get Raid SSs up and running quicker, and it's the closer wormhole in Misery to the homeworld station.

To add more metal to my dwindling pile, I fire up Bomber IIs as well.

Note to self during the initial assault on Green Lantern: Invest in Frigate IIs early.  Raptors are going to become a problem otherwise.

Bug found, probably from the Blade Spawner fix:  During the assault, my fleet hadn't trigger system wide alert yet.  The fleet swung past the spire shield post which put the Maws in range of the cmd center defenders.  They were able to suction off the cold-storage defenders without triggering up all the post defenders, because all the rest of the guns were firing on the spire shield.

When reinforcements hit GL my little 140 ship fleet ran for the hills before my maws popped.  Needed R&R anyway.

I blow a Distribution node on GL and get myself a 300k boost for both materials.  That's better.  I decide to hold onto it for now.  It'll help me bank for the whipping boy drop I'm about to do on Green Lantern.

At 26:51 I blow the Cmd Center on Green Lantern, pushing AIP to 33.  A colony ship and 5 Engineers were already prepped to go help out.  Econ is at 542k/642k.  I'm going to slam a turret wall into place asap while the fleet runs for Cisko to pop the Warp Gate that's leaning on the homeworld.

Step one: Get the dang fight OFF homeworld.  These two macho-men are too dangerous for homeworld games with the AIP boost.  They're getting a significant enough boost off the 1.25 multiplier on top of it and I don't want to see what happens with the boosted exponential wave rate against homeworld *first*.  >:(

GL gets a Mil I complex to help support the early turret wall.  Realizing I forgot to set the Science teams on Auto-gather I do that now.  The Fleet moves to cover the building complex from the hundred and one cloakers around here.  I'll FF up asap too.

At 28:20 I've got dual FFs up on a Mil I station covering the inbound to homeworld (Misery).  The locals are setup with an autobuild of 10 Engi Is/5 Rebuilders and the fleet heads for Cisko.  Meanwhile I start setting up the grav net on Green Lantern.  GL won't be a permanent whipping boy, it's just enough to hold for now... in theory.  I've got 25 Snipe/25 LRM on Homeworld to remove drifter traffic.  I start with 40 of Sniper/LRM/Laser/Basic (with Laser and Basic covering the station because of a short-range WH) and let it fly for now.

Threat invaders hit as soon as the fleet leaves so the Maws hang a Uey to cover while the rest of the fleet carries on.

29:11 The fleet hits Cisko's Wave Gate and AIP is at 38.  The massive resources I've been sitting on cover the build with little problem and the maws clean up the harassers easily enough.  Those 160 turrets won't hold GL alone, but it's a start.  The maws head over to Cisko to start helping with cleanup and getting ready to get that world taken down as well.  Meanwhile I'm still working on getting Scout I pickets out where they need to be.

My econ being reasonably stable at around half a mill, I fire up Raid SSs.  I'm going to need them eventually for the Eye raids.

Getting a bit heavy on metal (Wow!) I fire up 40 MRMs on Green Lantern to buff the station defenses a bit.

I realize I've got a problem trying to hit Hot Sauce from Green Lantern.  That Wormhole is just inside the Fort II's range.  I try taking fleet in there they're going to get waxed while I try to get them clear.  No joy.  I'll need to come in from the southeast.

34:25.  All but one post and the CC are down on Cisko.  The fleet's mostly intact, but they're all banged up.  I head home to Misery for a quick R&R.

*blink*  Oh my god.

Wave announced to Misery Green Lantern at 35:00.  In 1:30, I get 1,283 ships at Green Lantern.

Ho boy.  Time to go to work, fleet.  It's coming in on a 'long' wormhole at least.  I bring a stack of Flacks right on the cmd station and the rest of the LRMs online on Green Lantern.  Now's not the time to get fussy.  Another 20 snipers, too.

Out of simple curiousity:
Code: [Select]
7/6/2012 3:45:51 AM (5.036)
-----------------------------------
Starting CreateMixedWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 0:34:56 ; Player.AIType: Assassin ; Player.AIDifficulty: 10 ; AIProgressionLevel: 40 ; AITechLevel: 2
WaveSize = MultiplierFromWaveInterval * MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetCount: 2.36 * 1 = 2.36
aiTypeBasedAIPIncrement : 20
since difficulty >= 8, effectiveAIP = floor( ( AIProgressionLevel * 0.8 ) ^ 1.1 ) : 70
workingShips = ( effectiveAIP * player.AIDifficulty ) / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) : 233.33
workingShips *= FInt.FromParts( 0, AILoop.Instance.AIRandom.Next( 800, 1100 ) ) : 191.75
workingShips = Min(workingShips,34 * handicap_multiplier) :191.75
Inside AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, multiplier: 1.25
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType call, workingShips :239.68
numberShips = workingShips.IntValue :239
numberTech123 = numberShips - numberDefensive - numberExplosive - numberCore :239

Code: [Select]
Wave total ships: 1283
TypesForDirectAdd count by type:
BomberII => 183
FighterII => 246
MissileShipII => 251
AutocannonMinipodII => 320
LeechStarshipII => 1
AIRaidStarship => 1
TypesForCarrierAdd count by type:
AutocannonMinipodII => 137
TeleportBattleStationII => 35
BomberIII => 17
FighterIII => 22
Cruiser => 22
AutocannonMinipodIII => 44
TeleportBattleStationIII => 4

Holy cripes.  Well, I guess I get to see the new Carrier in action.  2.36 on the wave timer though?!  GYEAH!  I *knew* it was too damned quiet!

Oh, that's nasty.  Back to back, 1 minute spread.  Second wave comes in on the short-range WH. Ummm...

Research has 2,836K.  Crack open Maw IIs. Hopefully I can get a few up.  I have a feeling I'm about to die though.

For those curious about the new carrier, with 281 ships in it, it looks like this:


This is off.  Damage is correct, but # of salvos are wrong.

Quote
Previously carriers were way less dangerous than the ships they contained, tending to make a wave + a stack of carriers feel a lot more like that many back-to-back waves. This is better than the pre-carrier condition of waves capping out at 2000 ships, but still tends to cause the actual difficulty of waves to increase much much slower with the size of the wave than is desirable. So: Now gets +1 shots-per-salvo per 16 ships inside the carrier (that's on high caps; per 8 ships on normal, 4 on low, 2 on ultra low). So a carrier containing 1000 ships on a high caps game has 63 shots per salvo.
 Base Attack Power from 1400*mk => 19200*mk (the base strength of 16 fighters on high caps, but without the fighter's bonuses).
 

At normal, I should be getting a x35 on that shot count.  OH GOD IT HAS IT!!!!  It's just not listed!!!!  The first salvo cut into my fleet like it was butter.  94 MK II BEAM FRIGATES WITH THE SECOND WAVE!!! OH GOD THAT HURTS..........

Attached find a screenshot of the overwhelming assault on the homeworld.

YOU HAVE LOST

*rolls up sleeves, wiping blood from lip*

"Alright, AI, we need to talk...  it's about this abusive relationship we're spiraling into..."

Note: I'll be doing this again shortly, just not with the automatic AIP booster enemies.  It's just... too much.  Particularly with two of them.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 03:33:00 PM by Wanderer »
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2012, 09:53:44 AM »
I love your write ups. Nuff said.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2012, 09:59:02 AM »
Spirecraft can go rot until they get some balancing going on.

Sure, they could use a balance pass, but IMO they aren't terrible.
Then again, that is just my opinion. Not everyone likes how they are now, I guess that's why they are optional. ;)

I WILL NEVER USE PINK AGAIN, I PROMISE!!!!  Can't tell the difference easily enough between their ships and my own on FRD.  Had the same problem with Yellow.  Is there a way to alter the AI color after you've started a game?  This is going to get annoying DAMN fast.

You can save the game uncompressed (check under the advanced tabs in the options screen to turn off save game compression), and then use a text editor to change the  player color field of the AI with the pink.
I would agree though that the player colors for yellow and pink (and probably cyan too) should be shifted a bit so they are more distinguishable from the FRD, attack-move, and group move color outlines. Probably worth a mantis post.

Bug found, probably from the Blade Spawner fix:  During the assault, my fleet hadn't trigger system wide alert yet.  The fleet swung past the spire shield post which put the Maws in range of the cmd center defenders.  They were able to suction off the cold-storage defenders without triggering up all the post defenders, because all the rest of the guns were firing on the spire shield.

Sounds very similar to an issue I regularly come across where AI units under forcefields don't wake up even when there is something in range.

At normal, I should be getting a x35 on that shot count.  OH GOD IT HAS IT!!!!  It's just not listed!!!!  The first salvo cut into my fleet like it was butter.  94 MK II BEAM FRIGATES WITH THE SECOND WAVE!!! OH GOD THAT HURTS..........

Wow, and people were concerned that the new carriers still wouldn't be powerful enough to be a threat compared to what huge waves would imply. ;)
As Kieth mentioned, even at about ~1/3 firepower of the contained ships, they will still hurt more than you are probably comfortable with. :)

Also good to see that AI 10 is back to "pants wetting" brutality again.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2012, 10:20:43 AM »
That file list is getting a bit long there, a button for 'log resets' would be nice.
Got a point, there.

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Spirecraft can go rot until they get some balancing going on.
You mean the martyrs, or?  It's not that I haven't tried to balance spirecraft ;)

Quote
OH, NICE!  I don't have to swap to the main map screen anymore to keep from scrolling for four years while I type on the other screen if I need to use the mouse.  That's some sweetsauce.
Yea, you better be grateful, to make that happen...

I had to write c++

(shudders)

Officer, really, it was only about 6 lines.  And I didn't inhale.

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What kitten played with THIS damned ball of yarn?
Ronalgo, did you get into the nice man's maps again?  Bad kitty!

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Yeesh, 15 minutes later... and that's the best I came up with?  Well, at least I can see it now.
AIW! Now with graph-untangling minigame!

(seriously, I had fun testing that feature... something is wrong with me)

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The maws nerf is... um... well effective is about the nicest thing I can say about it.
Glad to hear they're still useful (as you said later) ; I don't mind bumping them up a little though I guess the "reload" times are pretty coarse and hard to do a "little" boost.  I guess we'll see.

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Nope, Size Factor 1.  No opening wave boost.  Just... Nasty.
Yea, and that's with a fairly good roll on the random modifier (about a 27 out of a 100 if this were a d100).

Thanks for the logs.  Math looks honest.  Just honest in that "sabertooth tiger advancing on rabbit" sort of way.

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I WILL NEVER USE PINK AGAIN, I PROMISE!!!!  Can't tell the difference easily enough between their ships and my own on FRD.  Had the same problem with Yellow.  Is there a way to alter the AI color after you've started a game?  This is going to get annoying DAMN fast.
You'd have to save the game uncompressed, and tweak the value there.  It's doable and I could give you more info if you wanted.  But sounds like you've been given an opportunity to reroll anyway ;)

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Bug found, probably from the Blade Spawner fix:  During the assault, my fleet hadn't trigger system wide alert yet.  The fleet swung past the spire shield post which put the Maws in range of the cmd center defenders.  They were able to suction off the cold-storage defenders without triggering up all the post defenders, because all the rest of the guns were firing on the spire shield.
Hmm, probably due to the fix to the maw lockjaw problem.  Not critical, but yea, it should do the usual ship.Anger() call before "transporting" them.

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Wave announced to Misery at 35:00.  In 1:30, I get 1,283 ships at Green Lantern.
Um. Wow ;)

Thanks for the logs there too.  Math also looks honest.  Just that "sabertooth tiger advancing on a rabbit that recently tore it a new one" kind of honest.

But I think the new wave-time rules based on number of entry points does need a little nuance.  Specifically, I'm thinking it should "phase it in" over the first 90 minutes, so that you've actually got some time to establish more than one entry point and don't get slammed with a max-time second wave basically automatically.  Sound reasonable?

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This is off.  Damage is correct, but # of salvos are wrong.
Does the description text not mention the salvo multiplication?  The Attack:76,800 part of the display is precomputed for the unit type and difficult to make it display differently per-ship.  I could make it say 76,800x? or something like that to indicate that it is variable, if that would help.

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YOU HAVE LOST
Woot!
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2012, 03:11:05 PM »
I love your write ups. Nuff said.

Thanks Moonshine. :)

Sure, they could use a balance pass, but IMO they aren't terrible.
Then again, that is just my opinion. Not everyone likes how they are now, I guess that's why they are optional. ;)
It's more that really only the siege ships are good for standard fleet command ships.  The rest are either one-shots (Martyr), annoyances (attritioners), buggy ( Ion cannon wannabes), broken (teleport transports), or... well, no comment on the new shield ships, I haven't used 'em.

Different strokes, as you mentioned.  Not my cup of tea, and certainly not worth it to me for the exos at 10/10.

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You can save the game uncompressed (check under the advanced tabs in the options screen to turn off save game compression), and then use a text editor to change the  player color field of the AI with the pink.
Well, I'm rerolling, so I guess it's a moot point at the moment. :)


Quote
Wow, and people were concerned that the new carriers still wouldn't be powerful enough to be a threat compared to what huge waves would imply. ;)
As Kieth mentioned, even at about ~1/3 firepower of the contained ships, they will still hurt more than you are probably comfortable with. :)
I'm also not comfortable with dropping the soap in jail.  Good gods.

You mean the martyrs, or?  It's not that I haven't tried to balance spirecraft ;)
Oh, I know.  They just don't capital ship well enough for my taste to offset the exos, as mentioned above.

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Yea, you better be grateful, to make that happen...
I had to write c++
(shudders)
Officer, really, it was only about 6 lines.  And I didn't inhale.
LOL.  Yeah, it was just a matter of getting used to making it lose focus FIRST then moving the mouse around.

Quote
AIW! Now with graph-untangling minigame!
(seriously, I had fun testing that feature... something is wrong with me)
Tree is worse, as is a few others.  Please, test more!  Test more!  Detanglers please!   :D

Quote
Quote
The maws nerf is... um... well effective is about the nicest thing I can say about it.
Glad to hear they're still useful (as you said later) ; I don't mind bumping them up a little though I guess the "reload" times are pretty coarse and hard to do a "little" boost.  I guess we'll see.
Yeah, let me play with them a bit and get some higher marks into play.  They were far from 'useless'.  I'd just gotten used to them being overpowered.

Quote
Yea, and that's with a fairly good roll on the random modifier (about a 27 out of a 100 if this were a d100).
Thanks for the logs.  Math looks honest.  Just honest in that "sabertooth tiger advancing on rabbit" sort of way.
Quote
Quote
Wave announced to Misery at 35:00.  In 1:30, I get 1,283 ships at Green Lantern.
Um. Wow ;)
Thanks for the logs there too.  Math also looks honest.  Just that "sabertooth tiger advancing on a rabbit that recently tore it a new one" kind of honest.
That it's a heavy waver with AIP bonuses seriously wasn't helping.  I actually could have stopped wave 1.  I'd have been in significant pain but it could have been stopped... well, maybe, if I early popped the Carrier.  The back to back just ruined me, particularly since the second wave practically spawned on top of the retreating fleet and the cmd center.

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But I think the new wave-time rules based on number of entry points does need a little nuance.  Specifically, I'm thinking it should "phase it in" over the first 90 minutes, so that you've actually got some time to establish more than one entry point and don't get slammed with a max-time second wave basically automatically.  Sound reasonable?
Might be a slightly easier way for the phase it in, but yes, it sounds reasonable since you're stuck at single point entry for a bit in the early game.  Could make it ratio (somehow, I'm home sick today so my brain's a bit fuzzy) based on the number of worlds either taken OR so it can't be cheesed the number of worlds that have lost a guardpost (tachyons count).

Errr, I'm not sure how well that'd work now that I think about it.  Maybe make a divisor against the max time allowed by how far you're into it (say 2 hours)?

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Hmm, probably due to the fix to the maw lockjaw problem.  Not critical, but yea, it should do the usual ship.Anger() call before "transporting" them.
Very hard to abuse at the moment, so no, not critical.  Just figured I'd mention it.

Quote
Quote
This is off.  Damage is correct, but # of salvos are wrong.
Does the description text not mention the salvo multiplication?  The Attack:76,800 part of the display is precomputed for the unit type and difficult to make it display differently per-ship.  I could make it say 76,800x? or something like that to indicate that it is variable, if that would help.
Something woudl be helpful.  Hm, if the display can't be modified... something like Attack 76,800 x Variable (see below) would at least help newbies not get inhaled by this thing on first (and second, and third) encounters.

Some notes about that carrier.  It's like fighting a fortress.  They don't go down easily and they obliterate whatever gets near them.  It rolled up on a turret stack and inhaled it in 2 salvos.  Short range turrets have no chance against these things.  Let me get a few more fights in against them with more established and traditional defenses but I have a feeling they've gotten a hair too much beef.  On knee-jerk reaction I'd like to see them get a 0.5x multiplier against turrets and structural (FFs) so you don't lose your short-range turrets in the first salvo(s) from one of these.  Note, that was a 1/4 filled carrier.  A full one will be a menace to anything that dares try to pop it.

At 1000 ships inside it'll get ~120 shots.  That's one cap of MK Is dead (roughly) every 4 seconds.  A cap of MK IIs in 8 seconds.  Popping one of these is going to require... well, you know, I'm not quite sure.  Nuclear Strikes come to mind.  I don't think this is a 10/10 issue, either, it's just exacerbating it because they're coming as MK IIs out of the gate.

... and then we'll have cake.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2012, 03:40:21 PM »
Quote
AIW! Now with graph-untangling minigame!
(seriously, I had fun testing that feature... something is wrong with me)
Tree is worse, as is a few others.  Please, test more!  Test more!  Detanglers please!   :D
I meant _you_ get to be the untangler ;)  I had fun testing the existing manual untangling.  There are actual games out there where that's all you do.

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Something woudl be helpful.  Hm, if the display can't be modified... something like Attack 76,800 x Variable (see below) would at least help newbies not get inhaled by this thing on first (and second, and third) encounters.
Yea, will do that I think.

Quote
Some notes about that carrier.  It's like fighting a fortress.  They don't go down easily and they obliterate whatever gets near them.  It rolled up on a turret stack and inhaled it in 2 salvos.
Hmm, that sounds off from what I thought I was making it.

It was a 250ish MkII carrier, right?  I had tried to do the numbers such that a carrier's DPS would be comparable to, say, 30 MkII fighters, 30 MkII Bombers, and 30 MkII Missile-Frigates unloading on stuff they have bonuses against.  Or something like 90 of each just unloading on stuff it has no bonuses against.

I thought the math I did would have that result.  What is actually coming out to, in terms of how many fleet ships it would take to hurt that much?
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2012, 04:11:34 PM »
There are actual games out there where that's all you do.
Somewhere, someone made a game called 'Watch how the paint dries' too.  I don't necessarily like playing that one, either.   :P

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Hmm, that sounds off from what I thought I was making it.
Mathmatically, you're right.  In my (so far, one) experience, not exactly.

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It was a 250ish MkII carrier, right?  I had tried to do the numbers such that a carrier's DPS would be comparable to, say, 30 MkII fighters, 30 MkII Bombers, and 30 MkII Missile-Frigates unloading on stuff they have bonuses against.  Or something like 90 of each just unloading on stuff it has no bonuses against.

I thought the math I did would have that result.  What is actually coming out to, in terms of how many fleet ships it would take to hurt that much?
Yeah, a little over 250 at MK II.  You've forgotten a minor thing though, those 60 bombers/missile frigates have 2-3x the fire rate of the carrier.  At 4 seconds/salvo, they are hitting MUCH faster.  The turrets would have some time to attrition the small mob that got up on them before the second salvo.  Also, that first salvo hits like hammers.  Thinking back to older fights that would 'float' past my LRM stacks... that hit like somewhere in the range of 300 Missile Frig IIs or so doing an alpha strike, in how fast that turret stack was erased.  That really wasn't the worst part.  Watching my fleet melt to it was impressive.  It insta-popped a Maw while blowing down 1/10 of my fleet in a single salvo.  On average 20 ships died (roughly) every four seconds.

The biggest problem is that it was like how I use maws or Blade Spawners... because its got fleet coverage the actual firepower of it is overwhelming because it's not a lone target.  It's just wailing away at high rates of fire in the middle of the mob.

Don't get worried about it yet, I just want to put the bug in your ear about it for now.  One serious engagement with them when I was on the run and overwhelmed is not a valid test.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2012, 04:16:22 PM »
Don't get worried about it yet, I just want to put the bug in your ear about it for now.  One serious engagement with them when I was on the run and overwhelmed is not a valid test.
Yep.  I just wanted to make sure I hadn't added/omitted a zero somewhere in the math or something like that :)

One possibility is multiplying the seconds-per-salvo and the damage-per-shot both by 3 or something like that; I'm not sure if that would improve things as the alpha strike would then become even more ludicrous.

The kicker, as you more or less noted, is that partial damage to the carrier has zero impact on its dps, as opposed to the sort of "triangle" graph one gets when killing a mob of firing fleet ships over time.  That "durable DPS" factor is the main reason I was ok with the actual overall firepower being way lower than the actual contained ships would have, but somewhere in the same ballpark.
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2012, 04:35:27 PM »
The kicker, as you more or less noted, is that partial damage to the carrier has zero impact on its dps, as opposed to the sort of "triangle" graph one gets when killing a mob of firing fleet ships over time.  That "durable DPS" factor is the main reason I was ok with the actual overall firepower being way lower than the actual contained ships would have, but somewhere in the same ballpark.

True, but as before you were fighting the waves back to back, now you're basically fighting the same wave twice.  Errr, yeah, roughly.  One other thing of note... do they REALLY need to be scout hulls?  If you want to speed pop it there's nothing in the main arsenal that really counters them.

I'm prepping round two now.  Just determining which AI Enemies I'm going to face.  I'm debating on evening off a +waver with a -waver.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2012, 04:42:24 PM »
Maybe there is an alternative :) .

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2012, 04:42:41 PM »
True, but as before you were fighting the waves back to back, now you're basically fighting the same wave twice.  Errr, yeah, roughly.  One other thing of note... do they REALLY need to be scout hulls?  If you want to speed pop it there's nothing in the main arsenal that really counters them.
Oh, yea, can make them UltraHeavy or something like that with a relatively high number of nemeses.

Quote
I'm prepping round two now.  Just determining which AI Enemies I'm going to face.  I'm debating on evening off a +waver with a -waver.
You mean with one that doesn't send waves at all?  Or is just light on the attacks (forgetting if there are such) ?
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2012, 04:43:27 PM »
Maybe there is an alternative :) .
I followed the ship-stack thread, yes, but I really have very little interest in breaking tons of code and model assumptions to make it possible ;)
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2012, 05:11:59 PM »
Quote
Tree is worse, as is a few others.  Please, test more!  Test more!  Detanglers please!   :D
I meant _you_ get to be the untangler ;)  I had fun testing the existing manual untangling.  There are actual games out there where that's all you do.

Not implementing a auto-detangling algorithm is fine. Graph drawing and graph detaling algorithms are pretty hard (not sure if they are NP hard, but certainly not simple. Strangely enough, testing whether a graph is planar is doable in O(V + E) time, even though finding it if it does exist is pretty nasty)

However, there is some merit to what Wanderer is hinting at. I've requested it multiple times before, and I'll request it again. Maps types where they are always planar and finding a planar drawing for them is trivial would be nice to have pre-built untangled, like concentric circles, X, and grid are.
Some (but not all) of the ones that have structures that guarantee a trivial way to make planar representation upon generation are tree, snake, vines, and spokes (though spokes could get rather crowded in its planar representation)

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2012, 07:36:54 PM »
Okay!  Round 2:
Same settings except for the AIs:

AI (Red): Tank 10
AI (Blue): Peacemaker 10 (My poor Raids)



Home planet's a 5/8 again.  Stupid kitten.  Get out of my map.

This time I detangled a little more intelligently.


Standard start.  I'd debated on only taking harvester IIs instead of IIIs and beefing the fleet immediately, but it's 50% boost at H II, and nearly 80% additional boost from II to III.  I'd also though about only boosting the Metal to make up for the early deficiency, but eventually I end up stupid crystal heavy (Raids) and Peacemaker's going to eat a lot of those.

I may be savescumming here a lot.  The last round I kind of gave to the AI once I realized what I was in for with that AIP + wave boost.  This one's going to be a significantly serious attempt.  For full disclosure to those who are reading these to help learn strategy, I'll show my savescum learning experiences like always.

I alter the initial build out slightly to 50/5/10/1 repeating to try to balance off the metal consumption from the Maws.

AI extra ships: Armored, Tank (obviously), Shredder, Beam Frigate, Raptor, Autocannons.

Planet scouting:
Borderworlds:
Green Lantern (2/4): Co-P and Fortress.  Seriously?  *facepalm*
Cisko (2/2): Dual Mass Drivers... you know, I'm not even going to mention the interceptor/mass drivers from now on unless they do something significant.  Assume they're everywhere, x2, shutting down a Raid SS based anti-Eye plan.  Rest of planet is negligible.

I wonder if Maws are Mass Driver targetable.  Since they can be hit by Bomber SS, I have to assume that's a yes.  That's going to dent some plans.

2 out:
Shawshank (4/3): MK IV world.  The tail is blocked, particularly with the spireshield IV sitting on there.
Flamethrower (0/0): AI Eye/Co-P.  Spiffy.  Only a SF post on it though, can pop the Eye pretty easily.
Matrix (1/4):Fort I, some posts.
Blackstone (1/3): ARS.  Niiiice. :)
Hot Sauce (2/3): Dual Counter IIIs, 4 Ion cannons.
Strana (1/4): AI Eye, nothing else of note.

3 out:
Eridani (4/4): AI Eye, Fort III.
Tau (0/3): Lightly defended.
Marik (4/1): (This one took awhile, didn't find it until midpoint of the second wave)  Fort III, Spireshield II... not much.
Draconis (4/3): Lightly defended

Knee-jerk reaction of initial scans: I'm hosed.  That's a lot of Eyes and Forts out there.

At about 5:30 with the fleet nowhere near ready I setup lines of gravs from the two inbound wormholes.

Knowing I'll be facing Tanks and Armoreds, I take a quick lookie-loo at their hulls.  Armors are Ultra-Heavies.  Space Tanks are Polycrystals.  Righty-o.  Heavy on the sniper for the Space Tanks... now, hrm.  Basics like Ultra-Heavies... Ah, Lasers!  Heavy and Ultra-Heavy bonuses.  Laser IIs... gyeah.  LOL, wait a second?!  The Science details for Laser II Turrets tells me about the Laser Drones, and nothing about the turret!  D'oh!  That's hysterical.  Not that I can't look it up in the build screen but that's not going to help newbies.

So, I'm looking at primary defenses using Basics (Anti-arty), Lasers (anti-tank), and snipers (anti-bomber).  The AoE turrets should chew up any fighters on the whipping boys.

First wave: 88 ships to Misery landign at ~8:10.  Oh, that's better.  That's MUCH better.

Fire up 30 Basics for now to help defend short-range at the station.  Fleet's at 100/50/100/5 when the enemy lands.  Not a lot of concern here... 16 cloaked, 7 armoreds, 6 bomber, 10 fighter, 9 missile, 8 tank, 12 shredder, 20... Youngling Tigers.  Hrm, well then.  Oh, yeah, Bomber SS, Flagship, and Siege too.  The fleet comes out of that relatively unscathed (except for the bombers, they're ruined... AGAIN), with most of the damage being done by the SSs.  There's still 16 autocannons hiding around here.

I science up Tachyon Turrets and Bomber IIs in between the waves, and begin construction of both.  I also get 30 Snipers going on homeworld (Misery).

Second wave is a mere 68 ships.  ROFLCOPTORS!  Seriously.  If anything proves just how over-weight early game AIP boosts are to certain AIs, this is it.

My econ is completely in the gutter, though, so that's a GOOD thing.  I'm not going to have more than 45 bombers or so when this wave lands.  LOL, my maws are trying to swallow the flagship and Leech starships.  They're not immune to swallow but it doesn't seem to work.

Okay, that's not funny anymore, guys. STOP IT.  With only 5 of you 2/5s of your abilities being wasted is NOT FUNNY.

Okay, time to stategerize:
Green Lantern's dead to me for now.  The Co-P on it is a false 20 AIP boost, and I'm going to have to break a fort getting through there anyway.  I've found 2 of the Co-Ps but until I've got four... yeah.  We saw how that +AIP boost worked out last time, didn't we...

So that leaves getting out through Cisko for the moment into the southeastern areas.  Well, that works, ish.  My first real target is Blackstone so I can check out that ARS.  Matrix and Flamethrower aren't really worth conquering.  Looking at the starmap in Cisko, though, Matrix's WH is problematic for a whipping boy.  It's close to the homeworld outbound WH and is waaaay off center for combined defenses from the other two (Blackstone and Flamethrower).  Hrm, I may not want to setup on Cisko at all.

That means I skip out and head straight to Blackstone, one of the intended defender worlds anyway.  If I simply blow the warp gates on Cisko and Matrix, Blackstone's layout isn't too bad, particularly with me expecting to take Hot Sauce eventually.  Heck, I don't really need to even blow Matrix's, just Cisko's.  I also want to break Shawshank.  I want to see what's behind it on Irian and Syphon in the tail and a 4/3 for econ isn't a bad thing if I decide I want an econ planet.

Alright, we're going to do some fleet work for a while.  Immediate goals are to determine the devastation those mass drivers are going to do to my Maws, clean up some locals, pop the Fort on Green Lantern, and open the door on Blackstone to get my Science II in there to see what's in there.  Once I've got that going I'll drop in on Shawshank and feel the burn.

13:45:  I'm letting my fleet rebuild and my maws finish dinner before moving forward.  Scout I's are heading out for picket duty.

18:10: Still getting pickets out but the fleet's good to go.  Grab a save before continuing.  4 Scout Is aren't enough to actually break into the last two 2-out systems and stay alive to picket them.  I'll need to get the fleet involved in some tach pops.

First stop, Cisko.  I need to see what I'm dealing with for Mass Drivers.  Oh, AWESOME.  The Mass Drivers don't shoot at Maws.  Oh, you're gonna BURN AI!  Also, my entire fleet can't wake a neighbor planet.  That's a bit scary.

I knock out some posts and most of the fleet on Cisko, but purposely don't pop the Warp Gate.  I need to see what these max time waves are going to land as before I bump the AIP again.  I do, however, head to Blackstone to open the door.  I suffer the Ion Cannon mostly because I'm not sure if I'll want to keep it for Whipping Boy defenses or not yet.  I leave with about half the fleet dead before I wake an EMP guardian.  Taking out the local guardians was painful enough that I don't want to strip my forces down completely.  The Science II makes its way to Blackstone while the fleet R&Rs, prepping to go after Green Lantern.

Blackstone options:
Primary: Zenith Polarizer
Secondaries: Zenith Bombard and Cutlass.

Ooooooooooooh.  Oh, choices choices.  Polarizer does extra damage against armor ships... Wiki time.  Rats, no data.  I know somewhere around here is the scaling multipliers for them.  Dang, can't decide.  Bombards or Polarizers?  I AM fighting the tank... 3k armor on Armor ships and Tanks, both.  You know, the polarizer might be a best option here.  Those ships are NEVER GOING AWAY.  No hack, we're going polarizer.

Meanwhile, the fleet's split in half on Green Lantern.  The Bomber I/II squadron's after the Fortress while the rest of the fleet harasses the system.  A stealth guardpost shows itself when the bombers get near so they take that out, too. 

1st of the 2nd wave announces.  143 ships to misery.  Okay, that's handleable.  Fleet which is still in reasonable shape heads home to support the defense after popping a good chunk of Green Lantern.  Couple of posts under glass left but the 200 ships that WERE there are mostly dead.  I also begin Raid SS production.  I realize they're not going to be worth heavy investment in for marks but they'll be useful on the non-Peacemaker worlds, in particular for popping Ion cannons.

After wave defense, the fleet after R&R heads back to Green Lantern at 32:30.  Target is to break Shawshank open, the Mk IV world.

Having some spare cash (half a mill each) I drop some turrets onto homeworld... and start running into power issues.  Fire up the 2nd set of homeworld reactors.  (Ahem, for those listening, YES ENERGY RESTRICTS YOUR FLEET COUNT!)  *cough* Sorry, frog in my throat.  I shut down a homeworld settlement for now to get a bit back.

Wait a second.  My fleet, earlier, couldn't fire up a 150 ship MK II planet, but I just woke, with a VENGEANCE, a 120 ship MK IV planet with the SAME FLEET?  Oh gods.  RUN GUYS RUN!  Dammit, Maw-death cascade, about 20 ships (mixed II/IV) a piece.  Ow ow ow.  Nothing like 'make your own wave' offenses.  The only way that could have gone worse was if I'd had no cash stockpiles for the rebuild or I'd woken an EMP.  Ow.  Annnnd, at 38:00 we refleet.

So, since I can, I take the little Raid SS Is out for a joyride in Blackstone, being VERY careful of the EMP guardian.

Next wave landing at 42:30, 160 ships.  They've got some guardians for backup from the Raid flight.  Should get interesting.  However, that was worth it, I finally got a picket up on Hot Sauce. 

This isn't good.  Those maws have a SERIOUS desire to try to eat starships with the new fix in place.  That's screwing up over half a cap's worth of firepower right there.  Houston, we have a problem.

The Raids were able to set off a huge MK III force hiding up on Hot Sauce, as well as pop the 3xMK I ions (Useless to capture, everything's MK II or higher).  The planet basically came to Misery and assaulted us.  The fleet, nearly rebuild, is rebuilding again.  Lost half of it or more to the defense.  It did clean out 100+ ships from Hot Sauce though.

52:00 Fleet's rebuilt.  Time to go smack that MK IV planet again.  Hey, Shawshank!  I'm comin'!

54:00 I get an announcement for 181 ships to Misery, just as I start hitting Shawshank.  they'll land in a minute.  The fleet finishes hunting down a sniper guardian before U-turning and heading for Misery.  They should get there in time to help, if necessary.  The fleet ended up probably being unnecessary, but it would have been a close thing.  No reason to not play it safe, it's not like I'm 10 minutes away on a deep strike right now.  We pounded a decent sized hole into the Shawshank defenders, now I just need to push through it and get the rest of that tail mapped off.

While that's rebuilding, my Raiders head out to Strana, a Tank world, to start working down the guardposts to eventually drop the Eye.  Right out of the gate I see another EMP Guardian I'll have to be careful not to wake... crap, too late, I spawned on top of it.  Ladies and gentlemen, this might be the end!  Prep the fleet!

I get the fleet ready to dive into Green Lantern to intercept the EMP while the Raids go to work in Strana... There's actually *two* EMP Guardians in here.  It's the last 2 out planet I didn't have a scout on yet, and this just makes things quite ugly, 'eh?

1:00:00 Status: EMP Inbound, fleet's rebuilding, Raids are dying, and a large threat fleet heading for me.  Yahooo!

The Fleet intercepts the EMP in Green Lantern with little difficulty and pulls back.  I'm going to get the other one fired off as well if I can while I'm prepped for it.

Of course, while I'm pulling this stunt and send the fleet to intercept the second one, 105 ship wave announces to land at 1:03.  The turrets will have to deal with local fallout, that EMP's gotta GO!  With that quickly dealt with, the fleet heads home to support.  We'll catch this mob on its way into Misery in small pieces if I can get them to drifter in.  They didn't.  I basically just wrecked a doublewave.

Strana's almost completely emptied out now, though. :)  Wonder if I can get one of my last 2 Scout I's to park there...  Hey, neat, finally did.  I hit Shawshank again about 1:08.  I got hung up on a Spireshield IV + Laser IV, getting it down to about 75% before reinforcements chased off the fleet remains, of which there wasn't much.  With a wave coming in we tuck tail for home.  I'm going to have to bring the Raid SSs with me to nail that Laser so we can pop the spireshield.  I suicide the remaining bombers after the MAss Driver left in Shawshank.  They didn't make it.

I've got a mass of MK IV ships coming in to support this wave, this will be painful... The only thing alive after the defense is the Maws, and that's because I was being VERY careful with the Micro.  Full Refleet.

However, my Raiders were able to remove the Eye from Strana without a loss, so they're coming home now that I can pay an ounce of attention to them.  Shift-click is your friend.

My metal/crystal is at 50k/600k.  I manually flip on the metal factories for a bit to help even the load.

1:15.  I'm feeling a bit stalled out.  I've gotten my initial objectives done but that MK IV world is just really being a bear to get past.  I've emptied a number of local systems out of heavy duty defenders too, it just *feels* like I've gotten nowhere.  What it is, though, is mostly prep work.  These things have to happen eventually.

Bored, I sic the Raiders on the Mass Driver in Shawshank.  They get it down to about 30% before all 3 are dead.

I send out the half-fleet to go clear Green Lantern of some threat that's building up while I wait.  I also fire up Scout Starships for some additional scouting potential.  At 2k in energy a piece it's a bit of overkill but I'll be able to power them down once they're in position.

1:20, Refleet complete, Starships are building again.  We head for Shawshank to continue clearance work... we'll wait on the spireshield till the Raids are ready and the Mass Driver's dead this time. 

Of course, as soon as I hit Shawshank a wave announces, 141 ships this time.  I drop 40 MRMs and 40 basics in to help deal with it, the fleet's busy dangit.  30 more snipes, too, when I look it over and decide it's not enough firepower.

With all the "dead" fighters rebuilding on homeworld to help out the defense, it holds with little concern, and with the raids removing that stinkin' laser guardian (and the lightning, eventually) the spireshield IV drops like a stone.  Well, more like styrofoam, but it gets there. 

So, I finally get eyes on Irian when I crash through Draconis with fleet leftovers.  (2/2) Mk III with an E class.  I'm unimpressed.  Last one is the tail in Syphon, and my 5 Scout Starships are going to see if they can't get an end-run in on it.  The fleet's heading home for R&R before I'm rebuilding my entire bomber squadron again.

Syphon's a 1/4 with an Alarm, a counter II, and... meh.  Well, crap.

1:30.  Rearfield objectives complete.  Shawshank/Draconis are 4/3s but they're off the beaten path.  I wanted Green Lantern as a Whip Point but I can't do that until I find the remaining Co-Ps.  Best I can do is shut it down for waves against homeworld for now but that's an open wound waiting to get hit, there's too much that can float through that point on a CPA, it doesn't have backfield control.

Eridani's a hard point on the SouthEast.  Fort, Eye, Mass Drivers.  There's no easy way to break that system.  I'm walled off.  So, I need to work my little area for the moment, and get a new plan.  I can get out via the north, but 'eh.  Blackstone has the ARS, is a 1/3 system, and could be taken and turned into a whipping boy to get the pressure off the homeworld.  This sounds like a plan to me.  None of the 3 worlds between Misery and Blackstone are really worth taking.  Warp Gate pop the two homeworld connections and simply move out to Blackjack.  That'll give me a staging area for hitting Eridani with as well as a decent turret stack to retreat to when I fire up the AI Eye.

Hot Sauce is a 2/3 world, but its got a pair of counterstrikes on it.  However, it could help me bleed off pressure from Blackstone.  Here's the problem... if they escape Hot Sauce they get into Green Lantern... which means direct homeworld access.  No joy.  We stick with Blackstone.  The wave reduction from time vs. AIP just isn't worth the difference... yet.

So, next set of plans.  Take Blackstone and my polarizers.  Get 3000 K in research, open up Scout IIs, and either Maw II or Frigate II, kind of a toss up at the moment.  Punch a hole through Eridani into those center systems as well as get eyes on Earth as a chokepoint.  I'm actually kind of nervous Cyborg or Jumping Jax MIGHT have the AI HW on it.  I doubt it but I want to confirm.

This will not be a race to the finish, I believe.

<Note: Photobucket's being a PITA at the moment, I'll upload a current map at 1:30 when it behaves itself.>
Edit:

« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 05:50:29 AM by Wanderer »
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Rematch - Keith's Revenge
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2012, 07:39:20 PM »
You mean with one that doesn't send waves at all?  Or is just light on the attacks (forgetting if there are such) ?

I'd meant one with lighter waves... but you're right, there isn't any.
... and then we'll have cake.