Author Topic: Red is not My Favorite Color  (Read 7216 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Red is not My Favorite Color
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2014, 08:48:13 AM »
I was hoping a golem buff could be done easily, before the rework. I thought you had said stat changes were fairly trivial at some point, though I could be mistaken.
The stat changes themselves are a matter of minutes (often seconds), yes.  I was referring to the data type constraints.

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Mr. Armored golem could go up to 2 billion HP, and quadruple/quintuple the dps, to fit within int32.
Beyond a certain point the unit is just considered invincible (like the dyson sphere or zenith trader), and there's some math that works on the sum of two health values, etc, so in practice I've set the value to at most (iirc) 800M hp for any given unit.

Anyway, will think about the golem stats.  Where do you think one should stand relative to, say:
a) a MkI H/K
b) a Spire DN (or BB, or whatever)
c) a Shadow BB (or CA, or whatever)

?
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Red is not My Favorite Color
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2014, 09:47:16 AM »
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Anyway, will think about the golem stats.  Where do you think one should stand relative to, say:
a) a MkI H/K
b) a Spire DN (or BB, or whatever)
c) a Shadow BB (or CA, or whatever)
a) wins
b) dreadnoughtish, a little higher.
c) wins against a shadow BB

I think they should be able to a take a nothing-special mkII system fairly easily, a nothing-special mkIII with ~half damage, and a mkIV system would be toss-up (current state: mkII with significant damage, fails miserably at other two).
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Red is not My Favorite Color
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2014, 12:02:58 PM »
And you think they should continue to have roughly the costs they do now, even with that kind of power?
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Red is not My Favorite Color
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2014, 12:30:06 PM »
Do you mean metal costs or exo-lethality costs?

Definitely more metal (1.5-2x their current costs); exos could get a little (1.25x at most) deadlier, but they're in-ballpark.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 12:34:04 PM by Faulty Logic »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Red is not My Favorite Color
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2014, 12:42:34 PM »
In general I mean the counterbalance.  So on easy and hard increasing their metal costs, and on hard slightly increasing the exo response.  On medium there's AIP and higher energy costs.  But I suppose for those I'd need to ask someone who uses them on medium :)
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Offline RockyBst

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Re: Red is not My Favorite Color
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2014, 01:18:19 PM »
I always use them on medium. I strongly suggest you don't raise the AIP and energy costs - 3 standard golems are already the equivalent of 2 planets AIP increase, and cost 2 planets worth of energy to run anyway.

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Red is not My Favorite Color
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2014, 02:48:46 AM »
I'd agree with not upping the medium price. It's already exorbitant.

===Operation Continuing Negotiations====
But first, I forgot to mention an imminent 1600-ship CPA. I use one of my massive piles of money to build a couple martyrs and vaporize the CPA.

Then I do two nebulae, achieving cruiser size for my champions.
With seven modular forts and an artillery golem, waves are merely bad, and not crises.

It's Fallen Spire time.

Everything up to the second city was pretty routine. I also conquered the ARS/Dyson world, for nanoswarms and the k for forcefieldsIII and missile and laser turrets mkIII, to maximize the cruisers, destroyers, and modular forts.

The second golem exo is at about 70%. Should be enough time.

The shard is four hops into enemy space. Surveyed.
And it's right on top of my fleet. Hooray!

FS timed exo at 50%. Boo!

2500-ship CPA announced. Double boo!
~1000 ship, ~100 starship wave announced, synchronizing. Triple boo!

I lost the entire mobile fleet (save the artillery golem) escorting the shard back, and it was down to 12%.

By the time the last shard chaser dies, the gravity net is in ruins, and I've rebuilt only part of the fleet (specifically, the enclave starships).

Oh, and the CPA announces. With Exo synchronization.

A combination of champions, the arti golem, a few judiciously applied rams, the merc fleet and streams of fireflies/tigers/nanoswarms/decoys saved the day, but the defenses are in tatters.

But I'm positively rolling in money, so they're back up pretty fast. I burn a couple more martyrs on the CPA, and construct the second city.

It was nice to have an exo response without a wave to back it up.

City built, spire fleet built, cleaned up the stragglers. Survey shows a stroke of luck: a shard already in my territory.

State of Empire:



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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Red is not My Favorite Color
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2014, 04:55:23 PM »
With seven modular forts and an artillery golem, waves are merely bad, and not crises.
It's an interesting scenario where a mere wave can even reach "bad" status vs that kind of firepower.


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A combination of champions, the arti golem, a few judiciously applied rams, the merc fleet and streams of fireflies/tigers/nanoswarms/decoys saved the day, but the defenses are in tatters.
Sounds like it's keeping you honest at least some of the time.  And hopefully entertained at the same time.


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But I'm positively rolling in money, so they're back up pretty fast.
Better than having to resort to Netflix :)  How's the balance feeling on how much salvage you get? 

Seems like it may be somewhat too generous (either in general or just with the stuff that tends to come in exos; two separate cases to consider) but also seems pretty close in terms of avoiding long refleet times.  But I may be wrong and it's actually pegging the resource cap way too much or something like that.


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City built, spire fleet built, cleaned up the stragglers. Survey shows a stroke of luck: a shard already in my territory.
Oh, what a pleasant surprise.  Is... is that shard ticking?
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Red is not My Favorite Color
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2014, 08:29:11 AM »
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Seems like it may be somewhat too generous (either in general or just with the stuff that tends to come in exos; two separate cases to consider) but also seems pretty close in terms of avoiding long refleet times.  But I may be wrong and it's actually pegging the resource cap way too much or something like that.
Well:

Also note the 44 matter converters

but on the other hand, this is from diff 10 technologist starfleet commader on my homeworld. At greater-than-cautious AIP. Outside of endgame FS exos, that's about the most possible metal per time unit from salvage.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 05:34:16 PM by Faulty Logic »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Red is not My Favorite Color
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2014, 09:28:32 AM »
Over Three Hundred And Forty Thousand scrap.  Per second.

But yea, Starfleet Commander.

Also, that's your homeworld, with the 50% efficiency.  On a non-homeworld you'd probably either be getting 12% (Mil III) or 10% (Warp Jammer).  I don't see many people tanking against a Log station, let alone Econ.

Anyway, if a wave of that size is on your homeworld you're either playing very dangerously or the AI has smashed through a goodly chunk of your territory.  Either way the additional benefit is justified.
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Red is not My Favorite Color
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2014, 07:00:03 PM »
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Over Three Hundred And Forty Thousand scrap.  Per second.
That was the very highest scrap got to. Until...


I think my actual economy is negative, and I'm subsiding purely on salvage. Then again, I'm tanking everything on my front lawn.

===Operation Silver Tongue====
I recall the third city chasers and counter city exo being REALLY nasty, so I want the full nebula fleet.

But first, I conquered a hive golem/bulletproof V world, and a StarIV world, both next to the Dyson sphere, so with core turrets and warp jammers, they might hold out. Addendum: NOPE.

I also hacked the two entry worlds for k.

Unlocked warp jammers, engineerIIIs, RiotIIs.

CPA triggers exo synchronization (this has prevented any golem exos but the first from hitting me with full strength) and a starfleet wave just so happens to coincide. The immediate aftermath is pictured above.

Conquered a Sentinel Frigate ARS (also comes with translocators) to get non-deepstrike access to all but one nebula.

I'm not actually holding any of these structures, of course, but I'll put the ships in cold storage. As for my EnclaveIVs, they aren't allowed to leave the home ff net.

Jumpship-sabotage-hacked a raid engine and BHM to facilitate nebula access.

As neinzul cruisers, carved a cloaked path to two nebulae.

Did the 3v2 and ravenous shadow nebulae.

Then what I've been dreading all game happens: a double wave. Spirecraft time:

2 martyrs on each wave take care of the ~3000 fleetships. The 170 normal starships, 12 spire battleships, and 9 shadow battleships are repelled, after reducing the home forcefield network into the red.

Oh, and while I was so occupied, a mischievous super hybrid completed the Dyson Antogonizer.
But that's a problem that can wait. A little.

The two Negotiators smash through to the 2v2 nebula, completing it quickly.

It takes careful engiIII movement, and some sacrificial starships jumped in to appease the OMD to get them to the brawl. And that just finished.

Unlocked SentinelIIIs.

Colony rebellion declared on a Zenith starship V world. The plan is to liberate it, and build the third spire city after the looming golem exo.

And then hack the superterminal, take the rest of the worlds I'm going to, and then endgame.

State of Empire:
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 07:02:37 PM by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Red is not My Favorite Color
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2014, 08:51:34 AM »
I think my actual economy is negative, and I'm subsiding purely on salvage. Then again, I'm tanking everything on my front lawn.
Considering that a planet's orbiting scrap decreases to 10% of its current amount over roughly 4 minutes, that must be quite a roller-coaster of an economy :)  Though probably even 0.1% (so, 12 minutes post-death) of an exo's contribution dwarfs many player economies.  And by the time it gets down into the mere hundreds-per-second you've already spent what you're going to spend until the next major action.  At least if you're raking in that juicy 50% efficiency.


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Then what I've been dreading all game happens: a double wave. Spirecraft time:

2 martyrs on each wave take care of the ~3000 fleetships. The 170 normal starships, 12 spire battleships, and 9 shadow battleships are repelled, after reducing the home forcefield network into the red.
Pretty impressive when a double-wave ranks up there with an exo.  That's basically a capital fleet slamming directly into your forehead.  And being neatly processed into the bank account.

"Got a junker fleet?  We'll buy it off you!"


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Oh, and while I was so occupied, a mischievous super hybrid completed the Dyson Antogonizer.
But that's a problem that can wait. A little.
Nothing that can't be solved by a little judicious Negotiation.
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Red is not My Favorite Color
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2014, 12:44:02 AM »
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by the time it gets down into the mere hundreds-per-second
That never happens. It's always at least a few thousand per second.

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Nothing that can't be solved by a little judicious Negotiation.
True. Two battleships can pretty much waltz around the galaxy.

===Operation Rebel Freedom====
I took the whole fleet (save golems and enclaveIVs) and group-moved it to the rebel planet. Negotiators sent out to dissuade the super hybrid and his infernal device.
There was no meaningful resistance, and they both come back. Jumped in the engiIIIs, and I had the rebel fleet built within a couple minutes. I also sucked out all the k, of course. I'll save it for now.

AIP up to 305.

By the time everyone gets back home, a CPA has announced. This will call in the 92% golem exo, and the 70% FS exo.

Repelled.

Double wave: also repelled.

Time to get that third spire city up.

===Operation Final City====
The shard chase was fairly easy, though the exos kept trying to get the shard, so the fleet (rather than the turrets) had to kill them, so I took a whole lot of casualties. Stupid H/KmkIII.

Built all mkII/III spire implosion artilleries.
Built 32 mks of ram.
Built 4 martyrs.

Built third city hub.

4 exo groups. Each led by an H/KIII. With two golems in support. Three arrive essentially simultaneously, too.

I have to deal with the two going right for home. And I do, but I needed the whole fleet and all the forts back near the home ff net.

Meanwhile, the other two went a city. The merc fleet/spire city managed to reduce the first exo group to just the H/K and two armored golems. The second exo, once its target had been destroyed by the first, got distracted and went around killing the sniper turrets on an unimportant planet.

The repaired main fleet arrives at the bare hub, and finishes the first group. Then backtracks to kill the second.

There isn't much fleet left by now, but the exos were repelled.

Rebuilt by the time the next timed FS exo shows up.

Went back down to refresh the rebel fleet.

Repelled double wave.

Time to start the Superterminal hack.

110 AIP later: that was really easy. The hacking response never left "very low." I'll save the rest of my hacking (125) for other things. And I should be able to take five or six more planets now, and can take my time:

State of Empire:
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 12:52:25 AM by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Red is not My Favorite Color
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2014, 09:45:07 PM »
Meanwhile, the other two went a city. The merc fleet/spire city managed to reduce the first exo group to just the H/K and two armored golems. The second exo, once its target had been destroyed by the first, got distracted and went around killing the sniper turrets on an unimportant planet.
The destruction of those sniper turrets was the keystone of a masterful strategy to... to... the orders were around here somewhere.

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110 AIP later: that was really easy. The hacking response never left "very low."
Hmm.  Maybe I need to feed it more raw meat.


In related news, just put in some golem buffs for 7.020.  Basically targeting health and dps stats which (taking into account utility like the Cursed's range and the Widow's tractors and ED) accord with their internal pricing of "Like 3 caps of MkV fleet ships".  That ballpark is around 240M Health and 9M DPS.  Which is also roughly in the same ballpark as a Spire DN (160M Health and 6.5M DPS) or a Shadow BB (78M Health and ~7M DPS). 

Armored Golems already had over 3 times the health of a Spire DN, in addition to their "takes 20% damage from anything that does not essentially ignore armor" attribute.  So in some cases 15 times as durable as a Spire DN.  So I did not increase their health.  But their DPS was doubled (to 5M DPS).

The Artillery, Black Widow, and Cursed all saw health increases (now even the Cursed, the lowest-health at 175M, has more than a Spire DN).  The Black Widow and Cursed also saw DPS increases into the neighborhood of 5M.

Anyway, potentially this doesn't address the issue fully but it seems worth trying before making further changes.  FWIW, my current target time for releasing 7.020 is Monday morning, but it might be Tuesday morning.
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Red is not My Favorite Color
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2014, 04:54:42 PM »
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Maybe I need to feed it more raw meat.
I agree. Hacking response low and very low is practically ignorable.

Excellent news on the golem changes. I'll tinker once the next version is out.

===Operation Double Archive====

Repelling the FS exo wasn't super hard. As usual, they broke through and trashed one city, but by then I had cleaned up the main attack and could catch and squish the invaders. The core turrets and engiIIIs/fireflies help a lot with defense in depth.

Syncing the reprisal wave was a nice try, but ultimately fruitless.

I conquered the black widow world and design hacked for spire corvettes, which I then unlocked to mkIII. I also performed jumpship shenanigans to destroy the two spire archive command stations (one of which has a hive golem), so I can colonize them quickly once the opportunity arises.

Golem exo arrives and is crushed.

Double wave arrives and is repelled, though the defenses weren't completely back up, and I took a bunch of casualties, including the spire refugee outpost, sadly.

Refleeted, all defenses back online.

Wait for it...
Wait for it...

Another two waves announce, though I have a bit more than a minute between them now. Repelled with the help of martyrs, then I immediately jumpship-colonize the archives. They should extract before any new waves are announced. The jumpships also carried my meager spire capital ships and enclave starships, for security.

I stomped the main fleet over to the upper archive, capturing a cursed golem along the way, sucking it's planet dry, and abandoning it immediately.

Then, I neuter a core world, which also grants access to the last nebula (one of the worst possible, just a repeat of the human 1v1. So no gatlings or enclaves or more than one cap of nebula starships. I still get 500 k, though.).

Hive golem repaired, and I spent the high-mark asteroids on penetrators.

Archives extracted. Fleet returned home, arriving just in time to repel a new set of almost-double waves. Unlocked Assault transports, RiotIIIs, shieldIIIs, zelecIIIs, zenith starshipIIs, and spire starship mkI.

FS exo imminent. My defenses/fleet can probably handle it just fi -

I recognized that thought process from basically every time I've lost to an exo, so I built the mkII and mkIII implosion artilleries, and some rams/shield bearers.

My paranoia pays off, as the exo declares with 70000 strength in massive ships. Including 5 H/Ks mkII, and one mkIII.

The home command station had red health when it was over.

Stragglers in my hinterland mopped up.

State of Empire:
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.