Author Topic: Ow.  (Read 6162 times)

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Ow.
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2013, 03:33:45 PM »
Here's the CPA:

It'll hit in about 10 seconds, freeze for about a minute, then pile up on the wormholes. Debug shows that they typically target planets a few hops away, don't know if that explains it.

Hmm, could that be it? When waiting to enter planet X (where X might or might not be their final destination), do they consider their "ships pending to attack X" to "enemy stuff on X" firepower ratio, or do they do that ratio comparison relative to the final destination, even if X isn't their final destination?


Optimally, they should be doing some of both. They should be doing it for the final destination to choose which planet they should aim for, and whether to "break it off" and find a new potential planet. If needed, they should also do it for the next enemy planet they need to "lurk" if they must use that planet to get to their destination for determining when to take that next step on their path to the final destination.
Aka, use final destination comparison for "final goal" selection, use the "next" planet comparison for "should I go into the next planet in my path" decision.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Ow.
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2013, 03:13:11 PM »
I just finished ripping all the references to "Firepower" out of the game and replacing it with the relative-strength logic (had to put in numbers for some things that didn't have that, but it's done now).

Testing your scenario the AI fairly quickly overruns Recursion, No Context, and Box of Mazes.

But it looks at "Midnight" and says "Good Night!".  It's about 70,000 strength of Threatfleet (another 12,000 pinned down elsewhere) staring across the wormholes at over 52,000 strength of your mobile and non-mobile defenses.

There's enough AI TF strength (about 4,500) in your "local cluster" to overrun Milkman's Lair and go after High Lab (which the TF is fixated on despite not being able to reach it, due to a lack of "reevaluate whether we can even get there" logic, a lack I'm currently testing a remedy for), but the ally enclaves are camping Milkman's Lair with some 3,000 of their own strength and the AI wants none of that.

Testing continues...
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Ow.
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2013, 03:16:24 PM »
I just finished ripping all the references to "Firepower" out of the game and replacing it with the relative-strength logic (had to put in numbers for some things that didn't have that, but it's done now).

Testing your scenario the AI fairly quickly overruns Recursion, No Context, and Box of Mazes.

But it looks at "Midnight" and says "Good Night!".  It's about 70,000 strength of Threatfleet (another 12,000 pinned down elsewhere) staring across the wormholes at over 52,000 strength of your mobile and non-mobile defenses.

There's enough AI TF strength (about 4,500) in your "local cluster" to overrun Milkman's Lair and go after High Lab (which the TF is fixated on despite not being able to reach it, due to a lack of "reevaluate whether we can even get there" logic, a lack I'm currently testing a remedy for), but the ally enclaves are camping Milkman's Lair with some 3,000 of their own strength and the AI wants none of that.

Testing continues...

Woa. I knew you mentioned you would like to have only one type of per ship relative strength/cost property, but I didn't think you would actually go through with it this early.
Must of been a lot of work.


Also, how are the firepower displays in the UI handled? Do they now just show the relative strength sum now?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Ow.
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2013, 03:19:35 PM »
Woa. I knew you mentioned you would like to have only one type of per ship relative strength/cost property, but I didn't think you would actually go through with it this early.
Firepower just didn't work as a consistent measure of power.  It was basically just BaseDPS.  Not even counting bonuses or whatever.

Exo budgets are still done their way (not firepower, not strength) since they at least function in a desirable way even if they don't quite make sense at higher tiers.

Quote
Also, how are the firepower displays in the UI handled? Do they now just show the relative strength sum now?
They're all updated to use strength now.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Ow.
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2013, 04:48:43 PM »
Found that I was mistaken about thinking that wait points factored in AI ships on other neighboring planets waiting against the same planet.  Well, they do now.

Still not enough to get them to go after Midnight.  I think that's because the wait point logic itself factors in munitions boosts on the target planet and does not factor in munitions boosts on the threat ships that are considering attacking it.  And I agree with that logic; it's somewhat conservative (it could check for mobile munitions boosting ships in the threat itself, which there is in this case) but I think that's appropriate given that a smart player will just assassinate their mobile munitions boosters if it's really making that much difference, whereas the AI will probably not be able to neutralize the human's boosting (largely from a military III in this case, I believe).

Anyway, what I need to track down now is why the threatfleet logic (as opposed to the wait point logic) is being less conservative than the wait logic when it's supposed to be more conservative than the wait logic (to avoid situations like this where chunks of the TF get "stuck" by the wait logic).  I'm guessing it's handling munitions boosts in a different way.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Ow.
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2013, 05:33:10 PM »
In the process of adding some detailed logging to check the strength computations, etc, I apparently introduced a bug which short-circuited the wait point logic in that particular case.

So the entire 82k+ strength TF attacked simultaneously.

Midnight's defenses destroyed them all.

Unattended by player control.

Your Cursed Golem slept through the whole thing.  Nor did any of Tripwire's golems or spirecraft get involved.
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Ow.
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2013, 06:27:30 PM »
Quote
I just finished ripping all the references to "Firepower" out of the game and replacing it with the relative-strength logic (had to put in numbers for some things that didn't have that, but it's done now).
Very nice.

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Testing your scenario the AI fairly quickly overruns Recursion, No Context, and Box of Mazes.
Yeah, they aren't intended to repel attacks, merely discourage them/support the fleet.

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But it looks at "Midnight" and says "Good Night!".
[...]Still not enough to get them to go after Midnight.
Midnight, on the other hand...

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So the entire 82k+ strength TF attacked simultaneously.

Midnight's defenses destroyed them all.

Unattended by player control.

Your Cursed Golem slept through the whole thing.  Nor did any of Tripwire's golems or spirecraft get involved.
...is an all-out, exo-grade chokepoint. I am not surprised at the result, though it is good to know.

You might want to have stuff like gravity turrets and forcefields factor in to planetary strength evaluations (if they don't already).


Basically, the CPA should be attacking everywhere but Midnight (and possibly High Lab/Milkman's lair, with mercs+allied enclaves) but be hitting hard everywhere else. And the ones that can't shouldn't wait at the wormholes.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 06:30:13 PM by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Ow.
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2013, 06:31:32 PM »
You might want to have stuff like gravity turrets and forcefields factor in to planetary strength evaluations (if they don't already).
They aren't counted (and haven't been under firepower rules).  I'm not sure how to count them as they shouldn't really scare anyone off on their own, etc.  But it probably should do some degree of "if the player's using those smartly, this is going to hurt a lot more than otherwise indicated, so..."


Quote
Basically, the CPA should be attacking everywhere but Midnight (and possibly High Lab/Milkman's lair, with mercs+allied enclaves) but be hitting hard everywhere else.
That's actually exactly what it did with the strength rules, in an earlier test.


Quote
And the ones that can't shouldn't wait at the wormholes.
Still working on that ;)
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Ow.
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2013, 06:40:39 PM »
Quote
BI'm not sure how to count them as they shouldn't really scare anyone off on their own, etc.  But it probably should do some degree of "if the player's using those smartly, this is going to hurt a lot more than otherwise indicated, so..."
Idea: have the "civilian" things multiply the military strength, by (1+ some evalution).

So it won't discourage an attack on an essentially undefended planet, but will factor in to big chokepoints. The actual result of "some evaluation" will need some testing, but I think for each mk*cap of ffs/gravity turrets, it should be about .2 to start.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 06:42:23 PM by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Ow.
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2013, 06:42:29 PM »
Added a command for logging the AI's wait logic against the planet being viewed (at the time of the command being given).

When the AI looks at Midnight, this is what it sees:

Code: [Select]
5/8/2013 6:34:32 PM (6.027)
-----------------------------------

Logging CalculateWorkingAlliedAndEnemyStrength on Midnight

Allied Total Strength: 19.77; from 1 total ships:
1 of SpecialForcesCommandPost sub-totalling 19.77

Enemy Total Strength: 87359.65; from 3333 total ships:
8 of HeavyBeamTurretII sub-totalling 6336
12 of HeavyBeamTurret sub-totalling 4752
4 of HeavyBeamTurretIII sub-totalling 4752
1 of CursedGolem sub-totalling 2970
8 of FortressMissileModuleII sub-totalling 2304.84
8 of FortressTranslocatorModuleII sub-totalling 2304.84
96 of MissileTurretII sub-totalling 2304
89 of LazerTurretII sub-totalling 2136
96 of CoreZenithParalyzer sub-totalling 1920
19 of CoreZenithElectricBomber sub-totalling 1919.99
3 of Fortress sub-totalling 1782
8 of FortressInsanityInducerModuleIII sub-totalling 1728.63
12 of PlayerControlledZenithRefugeeAdvancedCombatShip sub-totalling 1573.17
48 of SpireGravityDrainIV sub-totalling 1536
96 of YounglingNanoswarmIV sub-totalling 1536
96 of YounglingFireflyIV sub-totalling 1536
4 of PlayerControlledZenithRefugeeCommandShip sub-totalling 1237.5
1 of MilitaryOrbitalCommandStationIII sub-totalling 1188
9 of PlayerControlledGraySpireAdvancedCombatShip sub-totalling 1179.88
9 of PlayerControlledHumanMinerAdvancedCombatShip sub-totalling 1179.88
9 of PlayerControlledNeinzulMournerAdvancedCombatShip sub-totalling 1179.88
9 of PlayerControlledHumanResistanceAdvancedCombatShip sub-totalling 1179.88
96 of Turret sub-totalling 1152
48 of FlakTurret sub-totalling 1152
48 of SpireGravityDrainIII sub-totalling 1152
48 of LightningTurret sub-totalling 1152
96 of YounglingNanoswarmIII sub-totalling 1152
96 of MLRSTurret sub-totalling 1152
96 of YounglingFireflyIII sub-totalling 1152
96 of SniperTurret sub-totalling 1152
95 of MissileTurret sub-totalling 1140
95 of LazerTurret sub-totalling 1140
92 of FighterIII sub-totalling 1104
4 of HeroShieldModuleV sub-totalling 990
8 of CoreZenithReprocessor sub-totalling 960
144 of CoreEtherJet sub-totalling 959.94
12 of PlayerControlledZenithRefugeeNormalCombatShip sub-totalling 786.59
96 of YounglingFireflyII sub-totalling 768
4 of RiotControlStarshipII sub-totalling 768
2 of Flagship sub-totalling 768
96 of MissileShipII sub-totalling 768
96 of FighterII sub-totalling 768
48 of SpireGravityDrainII sub-totalling 768
2 of BomberStarshipII sub-totalling 768
1 of HeroHumanBattleship sub-totalling 768
96 of YounglingNanoswarmII sub-totalling 768
3 of PlayerControlledHumanResistanceCommandShip sub-totalling 742.5
3 of PlayerControlledHumanMinerCommandShip sub-totalling 742.5
3 of PlayerControlledNeinzulMournerCommandShip sub-totalling 742.5
3 of PlayerControlledGraySpireCommandShip sub-totalling 742.5
8 of HeroMLRSModuleV sub-totalling 719.3
9 of PlayerControlledHumanMinerNormalCombatShip sub-totalling 589.94
9 of PlayerControlledGraySpireNormalCombatShip sub-totalling 589.94
9 of PlayerControlledNeinzulMournerNormalCombatShip sub-totalling 589.94
9 of PlayerControlledHumanResistanceNormalCombatShip sub-totalling 589.94
6 of HeroLaserModuleV sub-totalling 539.47
96 of Fighter sub-totalling 384
3 of RaidStarship sub-totalling 384
2 of LeechStarship sub-totalling 384
2 of LightStarship sub-totalling 384
4 of RiotControlStarshipI sub-totalling 384
48 of NeinzulScapegoat sub-totalling 384
2 of Dreadnought sub-totalling 384
48 of SpireGravityDrain sub-totalling 384
96 of MissileShip sub-totalling 384
96 of YounglingNanoswarm sub-totalling 384
1 of SpireStarshipI sub-totalling 384
1 of ZenithStarshipI sub-totalling 384
96 of YounglingFirefly sub-totalling 384
2 of BomberStarship sub-totalling 384
96 of Bomber sub-totalling 384
19 of SentinelFrigate sub-totalling 384
6 of HeroNeedlerModuleIII sub-totalling 323.68
36 of BomberII sub-totalling 288
19 of Cruiser sub-totalling 228
1 of HeroMissileModuleIV sub-totalling 198
1 of ModularSpireFortress sub-totalling 192
1 of ModularNeinzulFortress sub-totalling 192
1 of ModularZenithFortress sub-totalling 192
2 of MiniFortress sub-totalling 178.08
15 of RiotControlLaserI sub-totalling 176.92
12 of BomberIII sub-totalling 144
12 of RiotShieldI sub-totalling 142.12
9 of RiotControlMachineGunI sub-totalling 106.15
2 of RiotControlShotgunII sub-totalling 94.75
6 of ImpulseReactionEmitterIII sub-totalling 72
2 of RiotControlTazerI sub-totalling 47.37
2 of RiotControlLaserII sub-totalling 47.18
2 of RiotControlMachineGunII sub-totalling 47.18
3 of RiotControlTractorI sub-totalling 35.53
1 of RiotControlShotgunI sub-totalling 23.69
2 of VampireClawII sub-totalling 13.71
8 of NeinzulMLRSDroneIV sub-totalling 11.91
8 of NeinzulNeedlerDroneIV sub-totalling 11.91
8 of NeinzulLaserDroneIV sub-totalling 11.91
8 of NeinzulMissileDroneIV sub-totalling 11.91
8 of NeinzulMissileDroneIII sub-totalling 8.93
8 of NeinzulMLRSDroneIII sub-totalling 8.93
8 of NeinzulLaserDroneIII sub-totalling 8.93
8 of NeinzulNeedlerDroneIII sub-totalling 8.93
20 of NeinzulMLRSDrone sub-totalling 7.23
20 of NeinzulMissileDrone sub-totalling 7.23
20 of NeinzulNeedlerDrone sub-totalling 7.23
20 of NeinzulLaserDrone sub-totalling 7.23
8 of NeinzulLaserDroneII sub-totalling 5.96
8 of NeinzulNeedlerDroneII sub-totalling 5.96
8 of NeinzulMLRSDroneII sub-totalling 5.96
8 of NeinzulMissileDroneII sub-totalling 5.96
1 of InfiltratorIII sub-totalling 3.6
1 of MobileRallyPost sub-totalling 0
1 of EnergyCollector sub-totalling 0
1 of MercenaryNeinzulEnclaveStarship sub-totalling 0
6 of ForceFieldGenerator sub-totalling 0
4 of MetalHarvesterIII sub-totalling 0
34 of GravitationalTurret sub-totalling 0
6 of MineLayer sub-totalling 0
6 of SpaceDock sub-totalling 0
11 of EngineerDrone sub-totalling 0
5 of LightForceFieldGenerator sub-totalling 0
78 of Mine sub-totalling 0
1 of CloakerStarship sub-totalling 0
6 of EngineerDroneII sub-totalling 0
1 of TransportShip sub-totalling 0
2 of CrystalHarvesterIII sub-totalling 0
4 of ScoutStarship sub-totalling 0
12 of FortressShieldModuleII sub-totalling 0
1 of SpirecraftJumpship sub-totalling 0
2 of NeinzulEnclaveStarship sub-totalling 0
5 of HardenedForceFieldGenerator sub-totalling 0

Inventory of threat power on wait points against Midnight
Total Strength: 80003.41; from 2867 total ships:
28 of AICarrier sub-totalling 56606.79
150 of TackleDroneLauncherII sub-totalling 7200
1759 of BomberII sub-totalling 7036
574 of FighterII sub-totalling 2296
104 of MunitionsBoosterII sub-totalling 2101.89
62 of ParasiteII sub-totalling 496
5 of AIGuardianBeamII sub-totalling 480
2 of AIHeroSpireFrigate sub-totalling 384
2 of AIGuardianLaserIV sub-totalling 384
2 of AIGuardianSpireImplosionIV sub-totalling 384
2 of AIHeroNeinzulFrigate sub-totalling 384
1 of WarbirdStarship sub-totalling 320
75 of MissileShipII sub-totalling 300
3 of AIGuardianLaserII sub-totalling 288
41 of VampireClawII sub-totalling 281.13
1 of AIGuardianFlakIV sub-totalling 192
1 of AIGuardianArtilleryIV sub-totalling 192
20 of SpireTeleportingLeechII sub-totalling 160
1 of AIGuardianZombieII sub-totalling 96
1 of AIGuardianArtilleryII sub-totalling 96
1 of AIGuardianFlakII sub-totalling 96
1 of AIGuardianSpireImplosionII sub-totalling 96
3 of ParasiteIV sub-totalling 48
19 of InfiltratorII sub-totalling 45.6
8 of ImpulseReactionEmitterII sub-totalling 32
1 of CruiserIV sub-totalling 8

Checking for "we have enough strength" clearing wait points against Midnight
ShipsAlreadyWaitingReady.Count:2890
strengthOfThreatWaitingAgainstTargetPlanet:80003.41
targetPlanetRollup.WorkingEnemyStrength:87359.65
targetPlanetRollup.WorkingAlliedStrength:19.77
targetPlanetNetEnemyStrength:7336.47
confirmingClearWaitPointOrder:false

http://dilbert.com/strips/2013-04-12


It's actually closer to going through than I thought.  And it would still lose.

Btw, with the "threat waiting considers all ships waiting on that planet" logic the AI actually did make the dash through Milkman's Lair to try to get to Midnight via Tripwire.  A goodly chunk of the AI actually made it through the atmospheric density of ally-faction enclave younglings to the Tripwire wormhole... and promptly turned around, figuring the few extra younglings it could dispatch on ML was more than it could do against what awaited on Tripwire.

What it should have done is go after High Lab; just a result of its "one threatfleet to rule them all" characteristics and Midnight being the target accessible from the "origin" (the AI HWs).  Not entirely sure if I want to try to make it multi-fleet as that's gonna be quite complicated, but this is one argument for it.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Ow.
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2013, 06:44:52 PM »
Idea: have the "civilian" things multiply the military strength, by (1+ some evalution).

So it won't discourage an attack on an essentially undefended planet, but will factor in to big chokepoints. The actual result of "some evaluation" will need some testing, but I think for each mk*cap of ffs/gravity turrets, it should be about .2 to start.
Yea, that occurred to me too, but does it actually work?  I can see a mkI cap of ffs making a 10,000 strength defense "look like" a 12,000 strength defense.  But should it really make an 80,000 strength defense "look like" a 96,000 strength defense?

In this case, I suppose so ;)
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Ow.
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2013, 06:56:16 PM »
Quote
But should it really make an 80,000 strength defense "look like" a 96,000 strength defense?
Yes. An 80,000 strength defence performs a lot more than 8 times better than a 10,000 defence, and this would help the AI "realize" that.

Quote
That's actually exactly what it did with the strength rules, in an earlier test.
Wait, then why did you change it?

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he AI actually did make the dash through Milkman's Lair to try to get to Midnight via Tripwire.
"Alright, we just need to wade through a horde of younglings, and get past all the superweapons the human isn't using right now to get through to his massive chokepoint! Wait..."

Quote
What it should have done is go after High Lab
"Alright, we just need to wade through a horde of younglings, and then the mercenaries, and then... what is that huge ship that just appeared? It's tearing us apart!"

Quote
Not entirely sure if I want to try to make it multi-fleet as that's gonna be quite complicated, but this is one argument for it.
Wait, you mean every threatfleet in the galaxy acts like one? It definitely shouldn't.
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Ow.
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2013, 07:04:38 PM »
Quote
That's actually exactly what it did with the strength rules, in an earlier test.
Wait, then why did you change it?
That's what it's still doing; I meant "strength" (the new numbers) as opposed to "firepower" (the old numbers).  The test was "earlier" in the sense of hours ago, whereas the tests I'm currently running are at a later stage in the game (the woebegone siege of Midnight).


Quote
Quote
he AI actually did make the dash through Milkman's Lair to try to get to Midnight via Tripwire.
"Alright, we just need to wade through a horde of younglings, and get past all the superweapons the human isn't using right now to get through to his massive chokepoint! Wait..."

Quote
What it should have done is go after High Lab
"Alright, we just need to wade through a horde of younglings, and then the mercenaries, and then... what is that huge ship that just appeared? It's tearing us apart!"
The AI just can't get no respect.


Quote
Quote
Not entirely sure if I want to try to make it multi-fleet as that's gonna be quite complicated, but this is one argument for it.
Wait, you mean every threatfleet in the galaxy acts like one? It definitely shouldn't.
There is only one threatfleet, correct.  Before joining the threatfleet threat behaves normally for 30 minutes, and that is more "distributed" as you'd expect.

But when CPA ships were changed to get dunked directly into threatfleet...  Well, I'm making a change now to not try to TF any ship that isn't on the AI's "side" of the galaxy.  Better that they stick to the "local" logic if they're cut off in some corner of the galaxy on the wrong side of one mean chokepoint.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Ow.
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2013, 07:06:17 PM »
Quote
Not entirely sure if I want to try to make it multi-fleet as that's gonna be quite complicated, but this is one argument for it.
Wait, you mean every threatfleet in the galaxy acts like one? It definitely shouldn't.

Yes. Same with special forces. It causes strange behavior when the AI space is not connected. I've mentioned this about special forces before, and the same arguments apply to threat fleet as well.

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Ow.
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2013, 07:11:13 PM »
Quote
The AI just can't get no respect.
I have plenty of respect for it. In fact, being willing to do crazy things like that when I least expect is a big part of it. But the price of doing the right thing when it looks wrong is doing the wrong thing when it looks (and is) totally crazy.

Quote
Well, I'm making a change now to not try to TF any ship that isn't on the AI's "side" of the galaxy.
Sounds great.

If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.