Author Topic: Monkey See, Monkey Do  (Read 2656 times)

Offline Mad Rubicant

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Monkey See, Monkey Do
« on: April 15, 2014, 07:10:40 PM »
I too have gotten interested in the 10 planet game that RockyBst has been playing. It looks like tons of fun.

10-planet Honeycomb, all expansions, seed is 1556527858.
8/8 Random Med-easy/Random Med-easy
All ship types, normal caps

Resistance Fighters 4/10, Roaming Enclaves 4/10
Golems and Spirecraft Medium
Zenith Trader
AI is Schizophrenic, and random types are revealed.
No plots, no AIP/time.

Starting ship is Spire Corvette, one of my favorite ships. This should be an entertaining first 8/8.
Especially when I screw up and it's only 7.3/7.3. Restarting

Assassin/Spireling. Hooray.
Initial unlocks are Mil 2, Hardened FFs, Miniforts, Engy 2s, Scout 2s, EMP mines, Gravity Turrets (Never used these before). I have 4k knowledge, and no idea what to spend it on. Any ideas?

I line place some mines, and 20 force fields go up over the home command station

Initial Scouting:
(A minor bug: if you use the in-game updater tool, the restart breaks steam overlay and screenshotting)
I find one homeworld, Ooradm. It's got a H/K factory and a CPA post, and the core world next to it has a C-Secondary CSG. This should be fun. At least it's not a Raid Engine. There's also a Fac IV hanging out

Core World Nipira: Cursed Golem, SSB backup, Spider Turret controller(!), Sentinel Frigate Fab(!), and a ZPG. I really need that planet.

Hagama, a Mark 2 world: ARS, another Cursed Golem, Missile Turret Controller, Sniper Fab(!), Spire Archive, and an ASC.

Raerios, a Mark 3 world: ARS, Black Widow Golem, Cursed Golem #3, Flak AND MLRS Controllers, a Data Center (lol), Engineer, Bomber Starship, Paralyzer and Firefly fabs, another Factory, and the other Spire Archive. Damn, this place is loaded

Raltch, a backwater Mark 3: ARS (of course), Armor Golem, a FOURTH Cursed Golem, a Counter-spy, Lightning and Sniper(!) controllers, another Data Center, Autocannon, Infiltrator, and Spire Starship Fabs, and a Translocator Eye. Pretty nice, especially considering how out of the way it is.

Last planet I can get scouts on is Udonuohas, a Core World: ARS, Arty Golem, Laser Turret Controller, Translocator, Space Plane, and Zevastator Fabs, and that's it. Pretty lame.


Then I saw these beauties:


First wave is 8 ships, 1 starship. Is this really 8/8?
To be continued.

Is there any reason Golems, Fabs/Controllers, and other miscellaneous capturables can spawn on Core Worlds but not Spirecraft Asteroids?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 07:16:53 PM by Mad Rubicant »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Monkey See, Monkey Do
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2014, 07:26:00 PM »
First wave is 8 ships, 1 starship. Is this really 8/8?
Depends on what those 8 ships are.  Fighters?  Something's probably wrong (on normal caps, anyway).  Spire Railclusters?  Then everything's just fine ;)  In fact that would be an unusually punishing first wave, probably.

If it launches and still seems underwhelming feel free to post the wave log of it and I can take a look.

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Is there any reason Golems, Fabs/Controllers, and other miscellaneous capturables can spawn on Core Worlds but not Spirecraft Asteroids?
Historical reasons, probably.  (translation: because that's the way it was done in the past)
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Offline Mad Rubicant

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Re: Monkey See, Monkey Do
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2014, 08:35:13 PM »
First wave is 8 ships, 1 starship. Is this really 8/8?
Depends on what those 8 ships are.  Fighters?  Something's probably wrong (on normal caps, anyway).  Spire Railclusters?  Then everything's just fine ;)  In fact that would be an unusually punishing first wave, probably.

If it launches and still seems underwhelming feel free to post the wave log of it and I can take a look.
Nah, there were tractor platforms in the wave.

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Is there any reason Golems, Fabs/Controllers, and other miscellaneous capturables can spawn on Core Worlds but not Spirecraft Asteroids?
Historical reasons, probably.  (translation: because that's the way it was done in the past)
Any plans on bringing them in line with other capturables, or changing everything else to that scheme? It bugs me.



Anyways, first I make a save to see if those Backups will respawn on the backwater planet. The answer is no.
Sadly, if I design hack this planet, I'll only get 6 of the 7 ship types, since I already have Spire Corvettes.

I manage to lose all my fleetships to Tractor Platforms. Oops. I may have to design hack this planet, but I really want 6 fleetship types that I'm never going to be able to use. Especially if the Trader is disabled on maps this small.

5 AI 1 ships, 1 Starship (I) to Demgesic
2 of the ships are SSBs. Does that sound about right for 8/8 at 10 AIP?

Current plan of action is to design hack Sian, then take it and use it as a temporary chokepoint until I can take Hagama. Beachheading Sian in preparation for a 7 ship hack is going to be fun.
1:05: Time to begin the hack of a lifetime. Especially when the AI spawns Mark 3 SBS. I also doubt I'll be doing any more hacking after this. 4 minutes in, the Special Forces show up.
I'm now at -1500 HaP, and can build Maws, Microfighters, SBS, Tractor Platforms, Gravity Drains, and Armor Rotters. Do I win?



EDIT: Estimated hacking response is 258,757
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 08:40:32 PM by Mad Rubicant »

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Monkey See, Monkey Do
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2014, 09:07:57 PM »
I doubt it would be feasibly done with this small of a map or with normal fleet possibilties (or actually be worth it, depending on what there is to hack), but interesting things await if you can bring that HaP down to -9001 and still have a hack in progress ;D

Offline Mad Rubicant

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Re: Monkey See, Monkey Do
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2014, 01:00:41 AM »
1:14: The Sian Command Station goes up. Mysteriously, half the forcefields on the home command station go down. Turrets get moved to the command station and Scapegoat Fab, and force fields go up over the Hive Golem and ASC. I'm running at -20k metal/second.

15 AI 2 Ships, 1 Starship to Sian in 2 minutes
My defenses are only half built, but these waves just feel small. Almost too late, I realize that the FF on my ASC is nearly dead from Enclaves. Wave arrives, and is slaughtered by my minefields and turrets. I'm going to guess that the small size was from the Armor Rotters and Railclusters. And Stealth Battleships

13 AI 1 Ships, 1 Starship to Sian in 2 minutes
Still feeling anemic here. Turns out the Assassin has Tractor Platforms and SBS, so that explains it.

Out of my new ship types, I'm really wanting to use the Maws and Tractor Platforms, with a bit of Scapegoating thrown in. Scapegoats should be really useful, actually, considering my limited resources.

I attack Hagama. I take out 1 guard post, and 1 Plasma Siege Starship survives.
New unlocks: Spider Turret and Metal Harvester II

2:13: Let's try this again, shall we? This time I won't beeline a guard post. Instead, I target the threat. It's not so bad a failure, since I only lost all my fleetships. And now there's an 84 ship reprisal wave, interesting. It's almost all bombers.
This time I manage to take out the Enclave guardian, and escape with most of my missile frigates.
Try 3, more failure. It looks like the only way I'm going to get anything done is with stealth raids.

CPA declares at 2:53, 256 ships
A stealth raid with my Corvettes, Flagships, and Plasma Sieges kills off a missile post, and slightly damages the shield on top of another.
CPA drops. It had to dip into Mark 3 ships to fill up. It's just sitting on Sian.
Last missile post goes down at 3:50. That took way too long. Now I just have to find a way to deal with 350 threat. Riots, no doubt.
Using Riots for engine damage is alright, but I have better luck using them and tractor platforms to drag stuff to my planet.

4:31: Judicious use of Riots and Tractor platforms has dropped the threat down to 86. I'm going to go blow up the command station.
4:41: Screw it, the answer is warheads.
4:46: Wave declared with no target; I should wait for it to join the CPA threat and blow it all up together.
It's not showing up. Lightning time.

A lightning 1 doesn't do nearly enough damage. Lightning 3 it is. It works, and now with all the waves, threat is at 100.

5:15: I manage to clear out all the threat on Hagama; I seize my chance and drop a command station on it. Now I just have to hold it for the duration of this spire archive. I now have Paralyzers, Missile Turret Vs, Sniper Vs, 2 Ebonite and a Titanite, and a Cursed Golem. Oh, and an Ion IV and V.

Using my new planet as a foothold, I manage to find the other home planet, Murdoch. It's got a Teuthida and... a Core Raid Engine.

5:21: 218 AI 1 ships to Hagama. Oh. I have no defenses up. Best I can do is throw up some EMP mines and hope they help.

5:32: The archive is safe. It was just a bunch of missile frigates with a Leech and Plasma Siege. My enclaves really helped me.

Good news: I managed to scout Kamichuz, and the only thing of import there is a Needler Controller and a Regen Golem, both ignorable, plus CSG C-Secondary, which I can already get without exposing myself to the Raid Engine.
Bad news: It has a Dire Guardian Lair


I can tell already that I'm going to have to take out the CSGs at the same time. Between the Sniper Vs and Cursed Golem, I should have enough distractions for the AI. I also completely didn't notice that there's a decent amount of Adamantite on these worlds. I'll probably get Jumpships.

Offline RockyBst

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Re: Monkey See, Monkey Do
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2014, 02:53:18 PM »
Sounds like you're doing pretty well so far then. Enjoy that CRE goodness ;)

6 design hacks is quite tasty, the problem is that they're all Mk. 1 ships. Fabs on the other hand are what you really want on this kind of map.

Out of my new ship types, I'm really wanting to use the Maws and Tractor Platforms

On low caps I personally think maws are about the best ships you can get. I'd strongly recommend buying higher marks of these and just eating every wave. Although reading again you seem to be on normal caps - how did you get such a small CPA?

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Try 3, more failure. It looks like the only way I'm going to get anything done is with stealth raids.

Rams. Lots of rams.

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I'll probably get Jumpships.

Yay, I started a trend. But don't forget Martyrs as well - amazing defensive implements. Rams, Marytrs, Jumpships and Penetrators - the spirecraft superstars.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 02:54:49 PM by RockyBst »

Offline Mad Rubicant

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Re: Monkey See, Monkey Do
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2014, 06:15:22 PM »
Out of my new ship types, I'm really wanting to use the Maws and Tractor Platforms

On low caps I personally think maws are about the best ships you can get. I'd strongly recommend buying higher marks of these and just eating every wave. Although reading again you seem to be on normal caps - how did you get such a small CPA?
Well, here's the CPA log. This look normal to you Keith?
Code: [Select]
Triggering CPA (always from first AI); Game Time: 2:52:30
effectiveAIPForCPAPurposes = this.AIProgressionLevelEffective = 30
since diff > 7 but <= 9, numberOfSecondsPerPointOfMinimumAIPForCPAPurposes = 360 + ( (FInt)60 * ( (FInt)7 - this.AIDifficulty ) ).IntValue = 300
minimumAIPForCPAPurposes = Game.Instance.GameSecond / numberOfSecondsPerPointOfMinimumAIPForCPAPurposes = 34
effectiveAIPForCPAPurposes = Max(effectiveAIPForCPAPurposes,minimumAIPForCPAPurposes) = 34
difficultyFactor = ( this.AIDifficulty * this.GetHandicapMultiplier() ) / ( 13 - this.AIDifficulty ) : 1.6
aiTypeFactor = 1
simulateMaxTimeWaveFactor = Mat.One + ( ( this.AIDifficulty * 2 ) / ( ( 14 - this.AIDifficulty ) * 3 ) ) : 1.89
simulateDoubleWaveFactor = 2
simulateDifficultySpecificWaveSizeMultiplier = (if <= 3 then 1, <= 4 : 1.5, <= 5 : 1.75, <= 6 : 2, <= 7 : 2.25, <= 9 : 2.5, <= 9.3 : 2.9, <= 9.6 : 3.3, <= 9.8 : 4, 10 : 5) = 2.5
humanHomeworldCountMultiplier = Mat.One + ( (FInt)( humanHomeworldCount - 1 ) * FInt.FromParts( 0, 330 ) ) = 1
numberOfShips (before applying cap-scale) = ( (FInt)effectiveAIPForCPAPurposes * difficultyFactor * aiTypeFactor * simulateMaxTimeWaveFactor * simulateDoubleWaveFactor * simulateDifficultySpecificWaveSizeMultiplier * humanHomeworldCountMultiplier ).IntValue = 513

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Try 3, more failure. It looks like the only way I'm going to get anything done is with stealth raids.

Rams. Lots of rams.
Not when I don't have Spirecraft asteroids. ;_;

Well, I seem to have been transported back in time by 2 minutes. Not sure how. That or I wrote the wrong time last post. It's apparently 5:29.
Unlocking Shield IIs. It'll help my Corvettes, too. One goes up over the ASC and Ion V, one over the Ion IV, and one over the Command Station. Also unlocking Area Mines. I really should do that more often.

All my planets get brand new Missile turret Vs, and I start rebuilding the Cursed Golem. I have barely enough energy for it, too. This thing is really cheap, actually. I've got 2 engineer Is on it, and I'm still positive.

The archive finishes at 5:40. 8500 knowledge. I have an ASC, and I don't want it to go to waste. Plasma Siege IVs do 3.2 million damage per shot, and have 8 second reload. Heavy Bomber IVs do 1.02 million, with a 2 second reload. They both cost 4k knowledge. Spire Corvette III/IVs cost 5k knowledge.

5:45: Cursed Golem comes online, at the cost of 10 AIP. It's going over by the Sniper Vs. It also only costs 90k energy, despite the summary saying 100k. Bug?

Interestingly enough, there are no Asteroids lower than Ebonite. There's only one Titanite, sadly.

While I'm deciding what to build/buy, the second CPA declares at 5:53. Right on schedule. 521 ships. 5 minutes later, a wave synchronizes with it. Again, it has to dip into Mark IV ships to fill up. And, again, both carriers just sit outside my planets.

I build some Spirecraft Scout IIs... and run out of energy. While the CPA is outside my door. Oops. I'm able to get 2 matter converters up, but it triggered the carriers. CPA is attacking into my defenses. So, that's an exploit that lets you pull threat into a bad situation: Go into brownout, and when it moves to attack you, build matter converters back into positive

Time for that Jumpship V. Suddenly I'm at -100k energy. Damn. And Spirecraft Scouts lose their permacloak when you're in brownout, I guess? Reloading. To keep those scouts alive, I'm currently running at 9 Matter Converters. I still lose one Scout.
Using my jumpships, I kill the Data Center on Raerios. Then I kill some guard posts. Unfortunately, I need stronger guns to take out the things under force fields. Suddenly, Plasma Sieges look a lot more attractive. I also need a better economy, since I'm running in the negatives at the moment. Unlocking Metal Harvester IIIs, Plasma Siege IIs.

6:28: Time for some Jumpship + Cursed Golem cheese. Then I screw up and lose a jumpship. Reloading. I need these things.

7:00: All that remains on Raerios is a cloaker post, a Fort III, and an MLRS post. Plus a bunch of ships.

8:01: Fort finally goes down. It took a lot of Cursed Golem shots to get this far. Now the Starships can kill the last two guard posts.

Tune in next time to find out how I kill Raerios with a bunch of starships in a jumpship

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Monkey See, Monkey Do
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2014, 10:18:58 PM »
Well, here's the CPA log. This look normal to you Keith?
Thanks for the log, but yea, the math looks right.  Iirc you're on normal caps so that number will actually be half as much when launched (normal is actually half-caps, with High being the default as far as the code is concerned, despite it generally not being able to handle it nowadays).
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Offline Mad Rubicant

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Re: Monkey See, Monkey Do
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2014, 10:45:32 PM »
Hooray, another CPA. This time it's 778 ships. Does the AI even have that many?

Last guard post on Raerios goes down at 8:41. I pop the Command Station at 8:47. Hopefully it'll stop reinforcing.

CPA drops. Well, it has that many. Half of them are Mark IV, though. Should be interesting.
Except... it only spawned 510 ships? I dunno, but it's hanging out on Nipira. Can't touch it there, not without triggering the H/K Factory.

Raerios is colonized at 8:56. I now have a Factory, Flak and MLRS controllers, Firefly and Paralyzer Fabs, Heavy Bomber Fab, and Experimental Engineers. Plus, the ARS had Parasites. But not one metal node. That's just gross.

The counter-spy on Raltch goes down at 9:11. Fortunately, it was near the wormhole. The data center goes down a minute later, casualty to Jumpships.
Wave declared to Raerios. I unlock Warp Jammers and build one there.

9:20: The Archive finishes. Unlocking Plasma Siege IIIs, Corvette IIs. Building all of these is going to take forever.

My starship fleet finally finishes at 10:41. Wow, that was way too long. I'd better not lose any of these. While slowly taking down Raltch, I have to pop a counterattack post. I end up with 1.4 million scrap on my home planet from the wave, more than anything yet this game.

11:01: I finally blow up the Ratch command station. It feels liberating, especially since I'm getting Spire Starship Vs out of it.

11:03: I colonize Ratch. I got Anti-Armor ships twice. Are you going to do something about double ARS planets giving only 1 ship type Keith, or is that intended behavior now? Anyways, the 4 metal nodes and 96 metal from the command station are extremely helpful.

OH SWEET! Since there's only 4 A-Prime CSGs, I only needed to kill 3 of them before they all blew up. Now the only thing remaining is the C-Secondary on one of the Core Worlds.
Then the 4th CPA declares at 11:27. 1034 ships. Scary. I doubt the AI even has that many. Yeah, I thought not. It said all the ships joined, but threat only went up by 500ish. Like all the others, it hangs around just outside my territory.

Well, I hope I can take care of this H/K. Time to start killing stuff on Nipira
Oh, it's only an H/K I. My starships can handle that. At least, they could if it would actually head towards my planets, rather than stick around on the homeworld.

At 11:56, the AI decided it could kill me. Instead, it gave me 4.2 million scrap. Threat is now down to 600.
I forgot that I had Autocannon minipod Vs and Infiltrator Vs. Hooray for stealth ships

418 ships to Hagama. O-oh. What are they going to be, Tachyon Microfighters?
They were Anti-Armor ships. Close enough.

2nd H/K spawned. Neither of them are moving. I kill the Nipira Command Station, 12:22. Time for speedy threat cleanup and colonization, so I can kill this AI.
To deal with the threatball, I have my snipers kill the Enclave guardians, then I use my starships as a distraction while experimental engineers build Sniper Vs and Missile Vs.
12:37, the planet is free of threat and guard posts. Colonization time. The H/Ks still haven't moved.

Hopefully in the next hour I'll be able to kill the AI 2 home planet, which happens to be that AI's last planet. What happens to it in that case? I'll have to wait for the next CPA though, since there's a CPA post on it. I'll probably use a Penetrator.

Notes: Experimental Engineers are amazing at setting up beachheads. A cap of them could probably do it in less than a minute. Jumpship Vs are amazing. Sadly, I don't think the lower marks are as good. That attrition really hurts, not to mention the smaller carrying size. Maybe for scouting?

Offline Mad Rubicant

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Re: Monkey See, Monkey Do
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2014, 10:27:46 PM »
I load the game, and those H/Ks are still just sitting there. I have about 10 minutes to destroy the post before number three spawns.
I'm too slow. There are now 3 H/K mark 1s just sitting on the AI homeworld. I'm going to need more firepower. Unlocking Corvette Mark III/IV, since I can Jumpship those next to the H/K post. They're all going to die, no doubt. Maybe I should send in a throwaway penetrator to kill the CPA post while I do this.

Now there's 4 H/Ks. I really need to kill that thing soon.

Time to do something INCREDIBLY stupid: I'm going to drop all my starships on the H/K factory. This is most likely a suicide mission. CPA declares at 2400 ships. The AI doesn't even HAVE 2400 ships.
Game log shows 2200 released, threat only went up to 1600.

Starships drop; the H/K factory dies in a few seconds. Who knew Mark IV siege cannon modules were that powerful.
I forgot to kill the mass driver. Oops. Corvette Railcannons take care of it though.
All the starships die anyways. Still worth it. Reprisal Level 4

128 AI 2 Enemy ships, 17 Starships (1) - (Reprisal)
Well, I should probably thank the AI for all the metal it's throwing at me.

A Plasma Siege III, IV, and  Bomber starship drop the CPA post down to 90,000 HP. I'll just drop some SSBs on it and call it a day.

A CPA declares at 14:18. 1200 ships. It has 800, and threat only goes up by 600.
Core Heavy Beam post goes down at 14:42. It cost me 4 starships.






You know what, I can't do it. I have a bunch of high cap ships from my fabs, and they just get wrecked on the homeworlds. If I wanted to, I could use my starships to kill each guard post, and it would probably work, but it would take so long I'll go insane. So, shelving this game indefinitely. You win this round, AI.