Author Topic: Falling into things (but not falling apart!)  (Read 2609 times)

Offline Diazo

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Falling into things (but not falling apart!)
« on: February 17, 2013, 10:40:28 AM »
Alright.

Fallen spire? I think it is time I actually play with them enabled to see what all the fuss is about.

However, still going to do my random setup and see how this goes.

80 Planet Lattice, Diff 8/8 Both Random All, Complex Ships, Normal Ship Caps, Normal Combat style, all minor factions and AI plots off except fallen spire at 4.

Hit 'New Map' and 'Start Game' without looking at the map.

And I get this:



Well, I'm both lucky and unlucky it seems.

14 wormholes into my homesystem? That's going to make defense interesting.....

However, as I get farther into the Fallen Spire story I have two perfect choke points to cut off about 1/3 of the galaxy to build cities in.

I also get Acid Sprayers as my bonus ship. Those are decent ships but nothing special so I don't count this as lucky or unlucky.

00:00:00 (Game Start)

Alright, I'm going for FS from the start and I have 14 wormholes into my home system.

I think heavy (crazily heavy) defenses are called for. Even by my standards.

With 14 wormholes I don't have a hope of keeping the AI out of my system so to start with:
8 more FFs over my home command.
Missile Turret Mk I Cap
Basic/MLRS/Laser turret x60.
Sniper/Tractor turret x50

Add in my inital fleet build and I think that's enough. (I hope so anyway.....)

00:15:00

Oh right, I still need to scout don't I?

Well, scouting adjacent does not give me any clues on the AI types. Within two hops I have a single Alarm Post, Grav Drill and a Raid Engine.

Although 14 wormholes is nice, I've only scouted within a couple hops of my homeworld and already have 21 systems scouted.

There is also a couple of waves that hit, but they just kind of vanish with the turrets I've got built.

00:25:00

Defenses up. Start on that surbey ship.

00:30:00

Signal found on Urnashwi. That's 2 hops out to the North West. Nothing special out that way so I'm going to neuter those systems then do the shard return.

I'll be escorting the shard with Riots for the shields so I don't think I need to clean out warp gates first. We'll see....

Out of time for now, next post when I do the Shard return, hopefully this afternoon.

D.

edit:
to see what all the fuss is about.
Firepower.  An awful lot of firepower.

Oh, there's a narrative in there somewhere too.

Hehe, firepower? I can always use more of that!  8)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 11:26:54 AM by Diazo »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Falling into things (but not falling apart!)
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2013, 10:43:12 AM »
to see what all the fuss is about.
Firepower.  An awful lot of firepower.

Oh, there's a narrative in there somewhere too.
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Offline Diazo

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Re: Falling into things (but not falling apart!)
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2013, 08:04:54 PM »
Alright. I have a shard to recover.

Start on Riots and Starships that will run close escort on it.

Take a look at the system where I'll be fighting this out and there are no AI fleet ships anywhere....

Ugh, stealth gets annoying. I think I'm facing a Stealth Master? It's not a Shadow Master as I have not seen a Planetary Cloak anywhere. There isn't a lot of space junk floating around either so it's not a Camouflager either.

No clue on AI2 though, we'll see if the shard return gives me any clues.

1:00:00 First Attempt at the shard

Okay, umm, oops.

I was expecting a significant AI response to the shard.

I was not expecting (at AIP 16 with only a single system controlled) 600 Mk III and Mk IV ships to the face.

That includes several Mk III spire starships, of which a single one can knock down all the shields on all 4 of my riots in a single salvo.

Ugh.

Save-scumming.....

1:00:00 Second Attempt at the shard

Okay, let's do this the high-AIP way. Capturing both systems before I bring the Survey ship in.

It's a Mk I and a Mk III system, but nothing special.

Still too early to go Forts, but Mini-Forts across 3 systems? That's worth 1k knowledge.

Also grab Riots Mk II so I can get more shields over the Shard.

Also grab Fighters and Acid Sprayers Mk II, I need a bigger fleet.

Mk II Missile Turrets also as they can cover the entire path between middle system between the system with the shard and my homeworld.

1:35:00 Second Survey Attempt

Okay, I'm all setup.

Taking 3 systems total gives me the energy ceiling to build out all my Mk I stuff so I have turrets all over the place.

I also go Logistics stations to get the shard back to my homeworld faster.

Here we go.....

1:45:00 Shard Recovered
Okay, made it.

And the shard is immune to the Logistics station speed boost? bah.

And that was intense, lost one of my 3 systems. Admittedly it was the one 2 hops out so the least defended one, but I still have 150 remains sitting in the system.

My fleet also took a hit but I did set it up so that system I lost took the brunt of the AIs response.

Even so, the riots escorting the shard were important as their engine damage made a lot of AI ships fall behind to be picked off. None of the riot shields fell however so the amount of AI ships that got range on the shard were not too bad.

How is the Mark level of the responding ships calculated? Mark level of the system's warp gate they spawn from? That's the only reason I can see for so many Mk IV ships attacking me. I would not expecting Mk IV's on the first shard recover if the mark level was defined via the Fallen Spire 'script'.

Okay, into recovery mode. Let's see where I'm off to next.


{time passes}


Aschr?

It is the Mark III in the very bottom left, a dead end system. That will actually make this simpler.

Will have to wait until later though, we'll see if I get playtime after supper.

D.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 09:00:27 PM by Diazo »

Offline Diazo

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Re: Falling into things (but not falling apart!)
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2013, 11:10:11 PM »
01:50:00

Alright, Aschr here I come.

It is two hops from my homeworld and is a dead end system so once I capture both I will only have to defend Mepar (the system between my homeworld and Aschr.

Except Mepar has the Gravity Drill. Ugh.

Well, all ships will be as slow as the shard, that's to my advantage I think.

Anyways, I have two systems to conquer

.
..
....



AI2 is a SCORCHED EARTH!!!!!!

ARGHWARFLEMARGLEARGH!!!!!!!!!

That means no turrets in the waypoint system between the second shard and me.

I also hope that the Fallen Spire directly checks for AI presence and does not use supply at all....

Grah.

This is just... ugh.


{5 minutes later}

Okay.

I've got that out of my system.

However, I have a problem. No turrets. The AI's response is going to be vigorous.

Without FFs, that Gravity drill is going to die so fast. My Riots have shields though. Hmmm. Beachead time I think.

Or I could just run Starships only on the escort and eat the AIP cost to emp the system whenever the Shard gets in danger.

We'll try the beachheads on the far side of the wormholes first. Due to my home system having 14 warp points, all 3 systems that border the world the shard will have to cross have supply from my homeworld so I can do this.

Going to be a long setup though but that's my best chance at this point.

I have 6k knoweldge from the two systems I captured to get the first shard also, I think I'm going to have to get some more FFs for warp point control to prevent the AI from warping into the nuked system and just bypassing my turrets though.

Cut out of bottom left of my galaxy.


My homeworld is selected, the blue circle is my next shard, red circle is the nuked system, green circles are where I'm going to establish beachheads.

The world with 169 units in the top left is where the first shard was.


Anyways, Scorched Earth, really.

D.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 11:32:54 PM by Diazo »

Offline Gorgar

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Re: Falling into things (but not falling apart!)
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2013, 08:33:49 AM »
I was reading your settings and wondered why you made it so simple, then the scorched earth AI came and I got much more happy :)
I'm happy that I as a beginner can get you interested in an older part of the game again.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Falling into things (but not falling apart!)
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2013, 10:14:16 AM »
Scorched Earth?

Game over man.  Game over.

(not really, probably, but man that RNG was going for the gold in Olympic Pants-Kicking with that roll)
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Offline Diazo

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Re: Falling into things (but not falling apart!)
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2013, 10:59:46 AM »
Okay.

First, can't get knowledge from a nuked planet at all, grrrr!


Second:

04:00:00 Gametime

Setting up beachheads is taking forever, mostly because I have to make 3 of them and they have to be strong.

Looking ahead to the Spire ships I will get, I unlock FF Mk II, HBC I & II and Engy Mk II.

Each beachead will be:
2x Mini-Fort
2x FF Mk II
3x H-FF Mk I
3x HBC Mk II
4x HBC Mk I
30x Missile Turret MK I
30x Missile Turret Mk II
30x Sniper
50 mixed turret Mk I (Basic/Laser/MLRS)

Now, note the heavy FF presence. Because I'm not actually trying to kill the AI, just delay it while the shard crosses the distance to my homeworld, I build everything underneath the FFs.

My kill count will go down but the beachheads will survive longer.

I'm also going to scrap the gravity drill, losing the resources will hurt but it's presence will drop the shards speed from 12 to 8 and with the beachheads AI ships should never reach the same system as the shard so making the shard returning half again as long will strain my beach heads unnecessarily.

I'm only going to get the 3rd (and last) beachhead half built before I have to end my morning session, but I wanted to get feedback on the beachheads before I commit.

Note that all I care about is the beachheads surviving so they keep the AI out of the shards path, killing AI ships is just how they do that.

D.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 11:14:04 AM by Diazo »

Offline Aeson

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Re: Falling into things (but not falling apart!)
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2013, 12:31:40 PM »
I believe that building a Spire City Hub requires supply on the planet in addition to requiring the presence of a Human non-Home Command Station. Have fun plotting out your city locations with that restriction.

Edit:
Also, I don't think that your beachheads will do too much to delay the response. I've seen shard recovery operation responses overrun fortress worlds with half or more of the Mark I/II turret caps at AI 6/FS 4 (granted, Spire Civilian Leaders were active in that game, so the AIP was up at around 300-400). The forcefields, if placed on the wormhole leading towards the shard-recovery zone, will help, but anything immune to forcefields will slip past and the rest of the group will sit on the forcefield and pound it to dust.

You'll also need to worry about response forces pathing through (or to) your homeworld. Do you think you have enough on the homeworld to hold off a response force for the duration of the recovery period, and then clear out the remainder of the response after the shard is recovered? Every subsequent response gets stronger than the one previous to it.

You might have better luck just removing warp gates from all the systems in the area around your homeworld, inside of the ring bounded by the two Mark IV worlds and your captured planet. Response forces only spawn from Wave warp gates, if I remember correctly, so if you destroy those out a fair distance you can (to an extent) control the time you have to move the shard and the direction from which response forces can hit you as you move the shard home.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 12:45:52 PM by Aeson »

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Falling into things (but not falling apart!)
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2013, 02:18:18 PM »
Quote
80 Planet Lattice, Diff 8/8 Both Random All, Complex Ships, Normal Ship Caps, Normal Combat style, all minor factions and AI plots off except fallen spire at 4.

Hit 'New Map' and 'Start Game' without looking at the map.
Huh. I'm crazy, but this is a different kind of crazy. Blind start? Fallen Spire on Lattice? I guess you have some mercy from the difficulty level if you're used to doom, but I don't anticipate success, especially without spirecraft/golems/champion to help you out in the first phases of the campaign.

Quote
I was not expecting (at AIP 16 with only a single system controlled) 600 Mk III and Mk IV ships to the face.
FS response is (IIRC) calculated with AI difficulty, faction intensity, and campaign progress.

Quote
Also grab Riots Mk II so I can get more shields over the Shard.
Riot shields are pretty insignificant compared to the 300 million shard health. However, riots are made of awesome.

Quote
AI2 is a SCORCHED EARTH!!!!!!

ARGHWARFLEMARGLEARGH!!!!!!!!!
The single worst AI for FS. Yes, worse than Raid Engine. Barely. ... You're not restarting. I absolutely do not anticipate success.

Quote
Going to be a long setup though but that's my best chance at this point.
SPOILER:You know that the second "shard" is actually a ship with speed 48, and the easiest part of the whole campaign, right? END SPOILER.

Quote
Game over man.  Game over.

(not really, probably, but man that RNG was going for the gold in Olympic Pants-Kicking with that roll)
I don't think FS is even balanced for scorched earth.
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline Diazo

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Re: Falling into things (but not falling apart!)
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2013, 04:02:09 PM »
I believe that building a Spire City Hub requires supply on the planet in addition to requiring the presence of a Human non-Home Command Station. Have fun plotting out your city locations with that restriction.

I know, I think I can get four cities in the left side of the galaxy past the two chokepoints. Might only be 3, have some worlds to scout at the top still.

Quote
Edit:
Also, I don't think that your beachheads will do too much to delay the response. I've seen shard recovery operation responses overrun fortress worlds with half or more of the Mark I/II turret caps at AI 6/FS 4 (granted, Spire Civilian Leaders were active in that game, so the AIP was up at around 300-400). The forcefields, if placed on the wormhole leading towards the shard-recovery zone, will help, but anything immune to forcefields will slip past and the rest of the group will sit on the forcefield and pound it to dust.

Bleh, we'll see.  ::)

I am pretty worried about that however.

Quote
You'll also need to worry about response forces pathing through (or to) your homeworld. Do you think you have enough on the homeworld to hold off a response force for the duration of the recovery period, and then clear out the remainder of the response after the shard is recovered? Every subsequent response gets stronger than the one previous to it.

Yes, I'm leaving what I hope is sufficient defenses in my Homeworld.

Quote
You might have better luck just removing warp gates from all the systems in the area around your homeworld, inside of the ring bounded by the two Mark IV worlds and your captured planet. Response forces only spawn from Wave warp gates, if I remember correctly, so if you destroy those out a fair distance you can (to an extent) control the time you have to move the shard and the direction from which response forces can hit you as you move the shard home.

That is the next step. I had hoped to keep AIP lower for longer but I may not have a choice.

Quote
80 Planet Lattice, Diff 8/8 Both Random All, Complex Ships, Normal Ship Caps, Normal Combat style, all minor factions and AI plots off except fallen spire at 4.

Hit 'New Map' and 'Start Game' without looking at the map.
Huh. I'm crazy, but this is a different kind of crazy. Blind start? Fallen Spire on Lattice? I guess you have some mercy from the difficulty level if you're used to doom, but I don't anticipate success, especially without spirecraft/golems/champion to help you out in the first phases of the campaign.

Well, at the time I thought I was going easy enough on myself compared to what I'm used to, but then everything happened.
Quote
Quote
I was not expecting (at AIP 16 with only a single system controlled) 600 Mk III and Mk IV ships to the face.
FS response is (IIRC) calculated with AI difficulty, faction intensity, and campaign progress.
Ya, I'm going to have to scale up my expectations.

Quote
Quote
Also grab Riots Mk II so I can get more shields over the Shard.
Riot shields are pretty insignificant compared to the 300 million shard health. However, riots are made of awesome.

Yes, Riots are. And the Shard Health is significantly higher then I expected. (It get boosted at some point? I remember it being quite fragile.)

Quote
Quote
AI2 is a SCORCHED EARTH!!!!!!

ARGHWARFLEMARGLEARGH!!!!!!!!!
The single worst AI for FS. Yes, worse than Raid Engine. Barely. ... You're not restarting. I absolutely do not anticipate success.
Thank you for the vote of confidence.....

Quote
Quote
Going to be a long setup though but that's my best chance at this point.
SPOILER:You know that the second "shard" is actually a ship with speed 48, and the easiest part of the whole campaign, right? END SPOILER.

Quote
Game over man.  Game over.

(not really, probably, but man that RNG was going for the gold in Olympic Pants-Kicking with that roll)
I don't think FS is even balanced for scorched earth.

I don't think anything is balanced for Scorched Earth, but I'm at least going to try.



Gametime 04:10:00

Beachheads are done, but I have a CPA to deal with first.

Gametime 04:20:00

Ugh. It's just sitting there through the warp point.

Come get me!

.....

And I'll trigger the raid engine if I go after the threat, looks like I have a raid engine to kill.

I'm not activating the next Shard with 600 additional threat sitting around.

Gametime 04:25:00

Okay, raid engine and thread dead. AIP just hit 99 from the death of the raid engine.

Survey ship time.

....

ANd the second shard has made it, that was kind of pathetically easy. Not a single beachhead took more then superficial damage.

I probably could have left the grav drill alive and survived the longer recovery for the resources that would have gotten me, oh well.

And I have a crystal deposit nice and close so the Spire Outpost has good weapons coverage on my home command. I hope it never gets used but I'm covering my bases.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 04:40:11 PM by Diazo »

Offline Aeson

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Re: Falling into things (but not falling apart!)
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2013, 09:17:26 PM »
Glad the shard recovery went well.

I guess I was recalling a later shard recovery, then. Could also be because I tend to play more constricted map types so the response tends to get focused on a smaller number of worlds more quickly.

I approve of the location of the Refugee Outpost, but you might want to consider dropping a forcefield or two over it as you progress further in FS, especially if your homeworld continues to be essentially your front-line position. Against some of the later exo-waves and response forces, the Refugee Outpost isn't much more than a speed bump.

Offline Diazo

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Re: Falling into things (but not falling apart!)
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2013, 10:38:44 PM »
Glad the shard recovery went well.

I guess I was recalling a later shard recovery, then. Could also be because I tend to play more constricted map types so the response tends to get focused on a smaller number of worlds more quickly.

I approve of the location of the Refugee Outpost, but you might want to consider dropping a forcefield or two over it as you progress further in FS, especially if your homeworld continues to be essentially your front-line position. Against some of the later exo-waves and response forces, the Refugee Outpost isn't much more than a speed bump.

Ya, that outpost is tough, but not really.

It actually got quite low on some random threat that just wandered in.

And threat is the bane of my existence at this point. Stealth Master has ships all over my empire.

Anyways, current map:


Red circle is the 3rd shard, yellow circles are the two warp gates left.

The systems marked P5 are future Spire City Hubs, I can only get 4 on this side of the map.

Yes, I'm planning to make the city hubs part of the defenses at the chokepoints.

This is at gametime 05:45:00 with AIP 197. I'm going to capture the 3rd shard system before returning it, but it has a data center so that system will only cost me 5 AIP to capture.

Fortresses are going to be a soon unlock. Maybe not the next unlock, but soon.

I am also going to be knowledge starved, if I want the knowledge from a Scorched Earth AIs system, I have to knowledge hack it. I can't get the knowledge after destroying the Command Station as all science ships require supply.

Now, to try and keep AIP down, I am not destroying the Scorched Earth's systems, I'm just warp gate raiding them.

However, that allows ships to build up from the reinforcement waves. But I've got mini-forts!

A pair of mini-forts can handle the reinforcement wave spawns as they come in quite easily so I'm building a pair of them in each scorched earth system in my corner of the galaxy.

Except it does not like this. I do not know which mechanic it is, but there's a constant stream of ships, about 50 every 10 seconds? coming through the chokepoint in the middle of the map headed to one of the scorched earth's systems on the left edge of the map. I think it is special forces, but there's nothing special in that system to defend.

Regardless, my borders are not secure at this point at all. I have funneled all spawns that will happen on the 3rd shard through my homeworld so I only have 2 systems to defend this time around. With supply to both of them, I don't have to monkey around with beachheads either.

Next up is taking that shard system and getting my first city up.

D.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 10:49:41 PM by Diazo »

Offline Aeson

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Re: Falling into things (but not falling apart!)
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2013, 11:29:31 PM »
Do you consider it within your ability to push the lower chokepoint out one world further East? If that P0 world with 116 of your ships on it next to your homeworld has supply, you can put a city there and shift the P5 at the 43-ship planet one world North (to the world with 63 of your ships) without having to change any of the other locations.

That would get you a fifth city, though at the cost of requiring the destruction of an extra 3 worlds beyond your current plans (also, check which AI owns the South-East chokepoint before committing to moving the Southern border from the South-West to the South-East chokepoint). But it's enough for a Galactic Capitol, which may justify it.

About the random ships coming through - I'd agree that it's Special Forces. Since you said there isn't anything special there, it might also be the chosen location for a threatfleet buildup. I think that locations protected by the Special Forces might remain on the 'protected worlds' list even after the special item is destroyed, though.

Edit:
After looking at the map in the original post, it looks like the planets I'm suggesting that you place Spire Cities on are: Sojer, Raini, Fumu, Urnashwi, and Urneliumas. This requires destroying the AI stations at Chaoker, Erdor, and Lubing in addition to the worlds you already want, though.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 11:52:17 PM by Aeson »

Offline Diazo

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Re: Falling into things (but not falling apart!)
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2013, 12:28:28 AM »
Hmmm.

Good point about Sojer, I could move the bottom P5 that has the yellow circle to the right to it and still keep the chokepoint.

Because I'm going to be knowledge starved, I think I'm going to need the cities as part of my defensive line so I want to keep them at the chokepoints if I can.

Now, I just have to scout and make sure those are not Scorched Earth planets.

The solid red AI is the Stealth Master, the Yellow-Orange one is the Scorched Earth.

I also really need to finish scouting the north before I commit to my city systems, a Scorched Earth system in the wrong place and I'm screwed.

D.

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Falling into things (but not falling apart!)
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2013, 03:15:12 AM »
Quote
Thank you for the vote of confidence.....
It wasn't meant as an insult. I'm just saying that I would have restarted given those circumstances, and would be impressed if you won. The third shard in particular will be brutal.

Quote
Except it does not like this. I do not know which mechanic it is, but there's a constant stream of ships, about 50 every 10 seconds? coming through the chokepoint in the middle of the map headed to one of the scorched earth's systems on the left edge of the map. I think it is special forces, but there's nothing special in that system to defend.
Sounds like the SF picked a leftish planet to be their rally point, and have to go through the choke to get there.

Unless you have a deepstrike going...
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.