Author Topic: 10/10 again (Peacemaker/Sledge Hammer)  (Read 2621 times)

Offline Faulty Logic

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10/10 again (Peacemaker/Sledge Hammer)
« on: August 28, 2012, 10:27:41 PM »
Cpas were buffed? Time to find out.

Version at start: 5.072

Clusters Simple-1286155265- Z beam frigates

Normal+champion

Peacemaker and Sledge Hammer (chosen randomly). 10/10

Plots: Avenger and Hybrids 4 for both, advanced hybrids 7 for one. Mono waves.

Minor Factions:
Marauders 6
Resistance 4
Rebellions 6
Traders
Neinzul Roaming Enclaves 6
Neinzul Preservation Wardens 6
Neinzul Rocketry Corps 6
Fallen Spire 4
Spirecraft Moderate -no Martyrs
Botnet 2 -no Botnet (So I am basically playing spirecraft hard 2, but with the moderate restrictions as well)

Complete visibility: otherwise you can't see the nebulae on the galaxy map (bug?).

Pause and evaluate the map:

Within my cluster (bottom right) (no further than 5 hops) are three ARSs, an advanced factory, a Core Zelec fab, two DCs, two Co-ps, and five backwaters.

The upper right cluster has the other advanced factory, another ARS, an exp. microparasite fab, a spider V fab, a beam starship fab, a DC and a co-p.

The cental bottom cluster has two dcs, two spire archives, and an AIHW with only one brutal pick, a parasite eye(?).

Bottom left has a spider V and translocator fab, a backwater, and the last co-p

Top left has the last ARS, three DCs, a bomber star IV fab, a raider V fab, and a planet with both mini-ramV and Yng Commando V fabs. It has four backwaters, but two of them are protected by the HWs double CRE.

Initial plan: perform the nearest 5 backwaters, fortifying HW to tank waves while expanding with warp jammers (thanks for the tactic idea, Diazo). I would also like to build the spire refugee outpost before expanding, though that is all the FS I plan for this game.

I begin by unlocking fighters mkII.
build fighters I-II and riot tractors. The first wave declares as fighters, so I also build the cap of mkI missile frigates. First wave repelled, and I have the full mkI fleet for the second (bombers). No problem. Waves have not been a concern for the first 2 hours.

Meanwhile, the champion is winning the HW backwater (Grey Spire vs. Dysons). I end up with fifteen gatlings to be put in cold storage. I got the spire hull and nanosubverter module.

Transports get the champ to a nearby backwater.

It is the new one. I am deeply amused. The human frigate died, but the spire frigate did much better. Still took two spawns though. Destroyers and bomber bay unlocked.

Last adjacent backwater is EER vs SFR. I don't remember exactly what I got from that one.

The other two nebulae in my cluster are five hops out. I want jumpships for this, so I steal some from two planets out.

I have a zentih modular fortress protecting my HW now. For a while it was a just a green square. Updated and now it is working fine.

Pysite raid complete.

Jump to a new nebula: Neinzul Mourners. Maximum prisons at once: 6.

Warp back, then jump to last local nebula: Zenith pillar vs. Astids/dark spire.

My champion is now a Level 21 non-Neinzul cruiser with shield and bomber bay IV, MLRS and Laser III, needler II, and nanosubverter, doom accelerator, IRE, and polarizer I.

Subspace signal two hops out, will probably build the refugee outpost as my next move.

Other comments:
Each scenario feels unique.
The new scenario is fun.
The nebulae give you energy, but it doesn't show up in the planetary summary.
I like the new (sane) k rewards.
Modular forts are not to be messed with.
What's up with all the barracks?
The new nebula logic works great, except when they need to attack a large starbase. In that case they rush in one at a time, but with the old logic they formed a capable blob.

State of Empire:
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 04:28:53 AM by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline Kahuna

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Re: 10/10 again (Peacemaker/Sledge Hammer)
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2012, 12:26:42 AM »
Uh oh! Again? You have too much time :D. For me.. so many patches so little time.
I forgot the clusters map style was added. Looks fun.. gonna have to test that myself at some point. Oh and the new AIs! :'(

Complete visibility: otherwise you can't see the nebulae on the galaxy map (bug?).
You can! Press X in the Galaxy Map to show unexplored wormholes. You will see them trough the fog of war too.

What's up with all the barracks?
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Barracks are now seeded on some AI planets at the start of the game (and retroactively into old saves):
The higher the difficulty, the more planets get them.
The higher the difficulty, the more ships in them.
None are placed closer than 3 hops from a human homeworld, to not be too cruel.
These serve two purposes:
Making it far less likely that the AI will simply not have enough ships for a CPA, while still letting players whittle away at "the reserve" if they want to.
Making the AI's defensive response to the loss of a planet (with a barracks on it) something more of an event.
Thanks to many players for feedback about underwhelming (still) CPAs and underwhelming AI defensive behavior.

Good change. Before Barracks were a rarity.

Good luck. I'll keep an eye on these AARs.

EDIT: Btw did you have threat in this game before you even scouted? In my last game Guardians and fleet ships attacked me over and over again before I even scouted. Have you noticed anything like that?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 12:37:13 AM by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: 10/10 again (Peacemaker/Sledge Hammer)
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2012, 07:00:20 AM »
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Uh oh! Again? You have too much time
Actually a result of a lot of vomiting. But yes, I have far more AI war time than the average person at the moment.

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You can! Press X in the Galaxy Map to show unexplored wormholes. You will see them trough the fog of war too.
Didn't know that, thanks.

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Btw did you have threat in this game before you even scouted?
Scouted? I am playing complete visibility.
I didn't get any threat until a ship left my system, though.

I recover the first shard and then the refugee ship with no issue. Four spire frigates, but more importantly, the massive SRO gun for my homeworld. This reminds me: does forcefield immunity also mean full firepower from under friendly forcefields?

I do not plan to hack an ARS this game, k-raiding should outweigh the ship-selection benefit, as long as I have enough good ships to upgrade (which I will, because I am playing ultra-low AIP today).

Unlock warp jammers, bomber IIs, flagship IIs, Zenith and spire Is, and metal harvester IIs.

First ARS is armored. Meh.
Second is Bombards. Excellent. Also comes with Z siege Vs.

Unlock crystal II/IIIs

Exogalactic strikeforce at 50%. Gametime 2:30
CPA declared: 3000 ships. Gametime 2:45 or close.

The cpa comes in four waves. All target the planet furthest from my HW. It was a peacemaker planet, so the 3 ion cannons and 2OMDs help a lot.

I originally sent my entire fleet over there in transports, but had to redirect most of them home to deal with the hybrid attack there. It was close.

In all, cpa repelled with minimal losses. Just the Z siege engine V fabricator.

Took third local ARS. Teleport Battlestations. Excellent. Unlocked metal IIIs.

Repelled exo-wave with no problem. It had about as much force (a little more) than a single max-time wave. About what I wanted, as my spirecraft use is mainly restricted by energy.

Jumpshipped the champ to kill a couple DCs, then do another nebula. It was the Spire v. Dyson again. 25 gatlings reclaimed.

These things take a long time. I have 4 matter converters running, and my still-small fleet is constantly hunting hybrids.

Once the fleet is complete, I decide to take the advanced factory in the upper left cluster. It has a barracks with about 600 units in it.
(would have been easier to take the close one, but one of the bordering planets has an inter-planetary nightmare machine on it.)

Jumphip the champion to pop the barracks, then deal with the ships as they enter my territory.

Threat back down to manageable levels, and the hybrid population is down, so I should be able to expand now. AIP is at the floor of 23, and will go up to 30.

State of Empire:
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 09:07:33 PM by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: 10/10 again (Peacemaker/Sledge Hammer)
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2012, 10:22:38 AM »
Actually a result of a lot of vomiting. But yes, I have far more AI war time than the average person at the moment.
Ouch, I hope you feel better.  Glad you have a game you enjoy in the meantime, if "enjoy" is the proper verb for 10/10 ;)

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does forcefield immunity also mean full firepower from under friendly forcefields?
Nope.  Only flak turrets and lightning turrets deviate from that rule, in that they get a 25% reduction instead of a 75% reduction to attack power.

Bear in mind that only human forcefield generators (including the one that starts next to your home command station) and human hardened forcefield generators apply the penalty.  Riot shields, shield-bearers, spire shields, etc, all do not.

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In all, cpa repelled with minimal losses. Just the Z siege engine V fabricator.
At least it was in the ballpark of "I had to defend myself" ;)  The next cpa should be somewhat more interesting.

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Jumphip the champion to pop the barracks, then deal with the ships as they enter my territory.
Hmm, this might become a common thing ;)
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: 10/10 again (Peacemaker/Sledge Hammer)
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2012, 10:31:20 AM »
does forcefield immunity also mean full firepower from under friendly forcefields?
Nope.  Only flak turrets and lightning turrets deviate from that rule, in that they get a 25% reduction instead of a 75% reduction to attack power.

And Orbital Mass Drivers. Can't forget those. ;)
Actually, OMDs do not mention this is in their description. Probably should be added...

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Jumphip the champion to pop the barracks, then deal with the ships as they enter my territory.
Hmm, this might become a common thing ;)

Is there a reason why the champion is not immune to transport? Champion only players can't transport them (by virtue of not having any transports), so why should normal+champion?

Plus, I still think the jumpship line needs some sort of a nerf.

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: 10/10 again (Peacemaker/Sledge Hammer)
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2012, 03:18:42 AM »
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if "enjoy" is the proper verb for 10/10
It is. This is my favorite game because it is hard. Besides, I need to beef up my claim for Wanderer's old 10/10 crown.

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Nope.  Only flak turrets and lightning turrets deviate from that rule, in that they get a 25% reduction instead of a 75% reduction to attack power.
Huh. I had assumed it would. Well, that explains why my Spire Refugee Outpost cannon wasn't vaporizing waves as fast as I thought it would.

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Is there a reason why the champion is not immune to transport? Champion only players can't transport them (by virtue of not having any transports), so why should normal+champion?

Plus, I still think the jumpship line needs some sort of a nerf.

Can champion players not use allied transports? Seems there should be some way for that to work out, though I haven't played multiplayer. I was able to load the champion in before the normal+champ role was implemented.

Much as I love jumpships, I agree. Though I think their nerf should be an asteroid-level adjustment, leaving their stats untouched.

To continue:

Before much of anything happens, CPA number two is declared: 5000 ships. Uh oh, I am only one planet bigger than I was at the time of the last one. 2500 of those ships are redeployed into carriers, all on the same HW. Fortunately, carriers are slow. My entire fleet is able to riot-tractor-under-champion-shield-grab a couple hundred ships at a time, and take care of most of the non-carrier 2500 ships as they arive in sub-thousand groups. By now the carriers are 5 hops away from my nearest planet. The champion in a jumpship (yes this is an awesome, perhaps overpowered combination) pops them. This ensures that the ships arrive in small (<600) groups: first the etherjets, then the raiders, then the fighters, then the bombers, then the evil mini-rams, then the frigates. The arrival of 80 marauders, and then, when they died, the full 160 resistance was quite helpful as well, though not instrumental.

In all, cpa repelled with no irreplaceable losses. I do have to spend about half an hour refleeting though.

While my ships are in defensive posisions, I jumpship the champion to kill the last two data centers and win the second-to-last nebula. This is at the cost of triggering a normal raid engine, but my aip is so low that I barely notice (<1000 ships).

Then I do the last nebula that will not trigger a CRE. The freed zenith pillar ships helpfully neuter an ARS world.

Now, I can finally take that advanced factory.

Send the champ up to pop the advanced factory command station, then kill the sentry eye and fortress mk II. This takes a while. Finally, I am ready to claim the system.

Colony ship arrives via cloaked transport, and I build the fourth warp jammer. I control the advanced factory for all of 20 seconds. Lighting warhead III from an NRC silo.

Not a huge deal, I am mainly capturing planets for their csgs anyway.

Next I take my last ARS (#4). It gives zenith viral shredders. *groan.*

I need to take three more systems, which will, after popping the co-ps, put my AIP at 77 for the final assault. Things are looking pretty good at the moment, especially with the weird eye-only homeworld.

State of Empire:
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 05:35:40 PM by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: 10/10 again (Peacemaker/Sledge Hammer)
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2012, 11:28:27 AM »
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Is there a reason why the champion is not immune to transport? Champion only players can't transport them (by virtue of not having any transports), so why should normal+champion?

Plus, I still think the jumpship line needs some sort of a nerf.

Can champion players not use allied transports? Seems there should be some way for that to work out, though I haven't played multiplayer. I was able to load the champion in before the normal+champ role was implemented.
The champion+jumpship thing... yea, it may need to just not work ;)  The main reason is the insta-respawn of the champ.  Jumpshipping in a fleet of starships (much less spire capital stuff) could be just as devastating, but if you lose those units you have to pay for them.  Even with a 30 second respawn timer on the champ (which I probably won't go that far, just the thing where dying twice in quick succession delays respawn), that's not much cost.  And I don't want the champ dying to be a huge penalty, but if you can just throw it basically anywhere in the entire galaxy at a moment's notice and not care if it comes back... yea, I don't think I can balance that :)

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Much as I love jumpships, I agree. Though I think their nerf should be an asteroid-level adjustment, leaving their stats untouched.
That may also be in order, too.

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CPA number two is declared: 5000 ships.
Neatly dismantled by various quasi-fromagery ;)

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I control the advanced factory for all of 20 seconds. Lighting warhead III from an NRC silo.
The NRC actually does something in a game, woot!

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I need to take three more systems
Any special forces responses at all?  For that matter, are you using anything except your champ on the attack? ;)

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especially with the weird eye-only homeworld.
Hmm, I missed that part earlier.  No CPA post or CRE?  That would be a bug in the seeding logic, I think.
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: 10/10 again (Peacemaker/Sledge Hammer)
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2012, 06:41:17 AM »

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CPA number two is declared: 5000 ships.
Neatly dismantled by various quasi-fromagery ;)
How dare you accuse me of using tactics that are almost like cheese? And of being french; that part was uncalled for.

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The NRC actually does something in a game, woot!
They once emped home command; that got pretty hairy.

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Any special forces responses at all?  For that matter, are you using anything except your champ on the attack?

Yeah, I am getting interventions of about 700 fighterIIs fairly regularly. It doesn't really affect me. And yes, I kill systems using Faulty Logic alone  8).

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The champion+jumpship thing... yea, it may need to just not work   
If you thought it was OP before, read about the end of this game. It needs to not work.

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Things are looking pretty good at the moment
Of course I had to say it. About 10 minutes in to my continuation, cpa3 is declared. 7000 ships. There is just no way I can hold every planet. I decide to let my two outposts fall, and take it where I killed the last two: the farthest planet in my home cluster.

Unfortunately, this batch of four carriers is on the other side of a black hole machine. I would just jumpship around it, except the AI bought another BHM, blocking even jumpships. I am suddenly acutely aware of the forum profanity rules.

Other groups are dispacted the normal way: riot tractor grabs back to the chop-shop. There are about a thousand of the non-carrier ships left when I bravely run away to my Homeworld. For the rest of the cpa, I am running 12 (!) matter converters.

Heavy defences on my homeworld and the fleet should be able to handle the remaining 5k ships. And they would have. If not for that emp warhead I mentioned. I have to use three lightning warheads mkI (those under cloak can get right next to a carrier, killing almost 1k each when the champ pops it).

Rebuild. Refleet. Exo-time: HK mkI and a couple hundred other starship/fleetship rabble. This coincides with a normal wave of about 3000 bombers (at like 40 AIP). Riots save the day: I make them into a scoop, removing the bomber wave from the equation (after carrier pops) by shunting them all the way to the grav border (when they destroyed the riots). Meanwhile my fleet kills the exo, starting with raid, then siege SSs, then the HK.

I rebuild and refleet AGAIN. This game has started to be significantly less fun than usual.

I get the CSGs that I am going to pop ready (kill everything on those planets).

I take a short break, then update to 5.078. And regret it, because the hybrids that were guarding the nebulae all decided to attack my home and wreck my fleet AGAIN. And I reported that behaviour. GrumbleIncoherentWordsOfVaguelyInsultingNatureGrumble.

Endgame time: I leave the AIFloor, taking the CDE CSG worlds in quick succession AIP:98. Then I decide to see just how powerful jumpship+champion is. Answer: rediculously. With the champion in jumpships, I neuter the first HW. With the champion in jumpships, I neuter the second HW. With the champion in jumpships, I clear a cloaking pathway to the HWs, allowing my 2 penetrator IIs to win the game. Now, the CRE waves have wrecked my empire (and at the end, had just entered my HW with an emp guardian), but that was far, far too easy.

Closing thoughts:

CPAs are awesome now.

Jumpships, are, sadly, in need of a nerf. Champion+jumpship needs to not be allowed, though I would prefer if champ+normal transport stayed in.

Champions in a normal game need a nerf. They and the micro faction starships (let alone the dyson gatlings) can stomp most enemies to the ground.

10/10 needs a buff, specifically the HWs.

Zenith traders are scumbags.

Where are my colony rebellions? I set it to six and never saw one over about 11 hours of play. This isn't the first time they have been missing, either.

The waves are a little crazy. I know I am asking for it, but still: waves of 3000 at 40? people could easily be simply killed early game, with just a tiny bit of expansion.

Spirecraft moderate+tiny empire= not fun. I used 14 jumpships and 2 penetrators over the entire course of the game.

There are still some exploitable AI behaviours left.

Next game will be FS, because I want to blow stuff up. Also exited about the battleship hull, new nebula scenarios, new champion abilities, and new fleetship caps. And what is this zombie-like game you are working on? I am intrigued.

State of empire:
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 07:39:20 AM by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: 10/10 again (Peacemaker/Sledge Hammer)
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2012, 10:55:06 AM »
And of being french; that part was uncalled for.
;)

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I would just jumpship around it, except the AI bought another BHM, blocking even jumpships. I am suddenly acutely aware of the forum profanity rules.

*Warp in*

"Enemy Black Hole Machine Prevents Your Ships From Exiting"

*Face enpurples, inhales for tirade"

"Enemy Profanity Policy Prevents You From Swearing"

MmPH! MmppHHH-furgleurgle-MPH!

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I rebuild and refleet AGAIN. This game has started to be significantly less fun than usual.
You think it's bad for you, how about the insurance company?

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I take a short break, then update to 5.078. And regret it, because the hybrids that were guarding the nebulae all decided to attack my home and wreck my fleet AGAIN. And I reported that behaviour.
Sirius Cybernetics thanks you for telling us how our products were failing to produce the maximum possible misery.  Customer service is always our top priority.  Share and enjoy!

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CPAs are awesome now.
Good to know I did something right ;)

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Jumpships, are, sadly, in need of a nerf. Champion+jumpship needs to not be allowed, though I would prefer if champ+normal transport stayed in.
Making them immune to jumpships without making them immune to transports could be pretty tricky, but I'll think about it.

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Champions in a normal game need a nerf.
Yea, I think increasing their contribution to normal-game threat multipliers (waves, cpas, etc) without increasing their contribution to superweapon-game threat multipliers (exos, mainly) seems appropriate.  The stats themselves could come down, of course, but basically they're already where I want them: the hulls are basically a cap-worth of hp and damage in themselves (FF=mkI, DD=mkII, etc), each small module is about 1/18th of a cap in attack power, and each large module isa bout 1/4th of a cap in attack power (or health, for the shields, though I think they may have more than 1/4th cap-health, I forget).  So a human FF starts out with 1 + 6/18 + 2/4 = 1.833~ cap*mk's of firepower and 1 of health, and with mkII modules gets to 1 + (6/18)*2 + (2/4)*2 = 2.66~ cap*mk's.  Of course, a human CA with mkIV modules gets 3 + (16/18)*4 + (4/2)*4 = 14.55~ cap*mk's of firepower and 3 of health.  In theory it should only take 3 caps of MkV AI fleet ships to match that, but I'm not sure how much the...

... homeworlds even have.

*lightbulb*

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They and the micro faction starships (let alone the dyson gatlings) can stomp most enemies to the ground.
Ah yes, those meddlers ;)

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Where are my colony rebellions? I set it to six and never saw one over about 11 hours of play. This isn't the first time they have been missing, either.
Odd, can you attach a lategame save so I can check the counter progress on those?  You should have seen 1, if not 2, in that time.

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The waves are a little crazy. I know I am asking for it, but still: waves of 3000 at 40? people could easily be simply killed early game, with just a tiny bit of expansion.
10/10.  If it can't kill the slightly unwary early in the game, it'll never kill you ;)

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Spirecraft moderate+tiny empire= not fun.
Not surprising, though I think you still got some entertainment out of those jumpships.

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There are still some exploitable AI behaviours left.
There's not a whole lot I can do about the underlying behavior routines without ripping up a ton of code; the actual "what do I do?" logic for normal AI ships is largely untouched from like 2 (nearly 3) years ago, and I didn't write it.  In general it does a very good job at providing a "bedrock" of challenge upon which I can build crazy stuff like hybrids, exos, special forces, etc, but tampering with it specifically is something I only do sparingly.  That may change in the future but for now I'm looking for lower-hanging fruit.

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Next game will be FS, because I want to blow stuff up.
(car salesman) Then you've come to the right place!

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Also exited about the battleship hull, new nebula scenarios, new champion abilities
New stuff not likely to appear for a few days, I've got some other stuff I need to take care of, but yea, they'll be there ;)

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And what is this zombie-like game you are working on? I am intrigued.
Shattered Haven?  Yea, there you'll get to see how Chris likes to slaughter players nowadays ;)
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: 10/10 again (Peacemaker/Sledge Hammer)
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2012, 11:33:27 AM »
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You think it's bad for you, how about the insurance company?
You mean the insurance company that won't let Arti's kill HKs? Those denizens-of-illegitimate-ancestry? After the AI War, we use their employees as autobomb pilots. Or ammunition.

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MmPH! MmppHHH-furgleurgle-MPH!
Pretty much. Had to use warheads.

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*lightbulb*
Hmm, how will the HWs be buffed? I really want to know now.

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Odd, can you attach a lategame save so I can check the counter progress on those?  You should have seen 1, if not 2, in that time.
Should be attached.

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10/10.  If it can't kill the slightly unwary early in the game, it'll never kill you
What have I ever done to... oh. Right. Human.

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That may change in the future but for now I'm looking for lower-hanging fruit.
I have some implementation suggestions that shouldn't take that much code-destroying (though I could be very, very wrong), but understand you are very busy right now. And the reservations about changing it.

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Shattered Haven?  Yea, there you'll get to see how Chris likes to slaughter players nowadays
Whatever Arcen does, you will always be "the AIWar guys" in my mind. Note: this is a good thing.

Still impressed with the forums, you either have really nice/smart people or some kind of Orwellian editing system.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 11:57:40 AM by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.