Author Topic: Thoughts on New Crafting/Spells  (Read 3742 times)

Offline darkchair

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Re: Thoughts on New Crafting/Spells
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2012, 01:09:02 PM »
Yeah, something needs to be adjusted about the surface missions.
I'd be up for reducing the number of missions, making it a rate of 5 * % of continent cleared of wind (rounded up).
Or you could make the spells rewarded from surface missions have a limited amount of uses (through shots or time).
I would enjoy both of these implemented.

As others have said I support increasing the costs of spells again, it is too easy now to get anything you want quickly.

Offline LayZboy

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Re: Thoughts on New Crafting/Spells
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2012, 01:46:33 PM »
To be honest, mouldyK and I are spending even less time together since the change, since we can't help each other all that much anymore.

Offline BenMiff

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Re: Thoughts on New Crafting/Spells
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2012, 01:53:57 PM »
I think it makes sense to have a constant number of missions -- finish one, and you immediately get another.

The number of missions would remain constant; the idea is that when you clear one missions, it also clears any other missions present at the same time.

There was no need to explore at all.

I'm not saying that missions should be mandatory. I'm saying that doing missions should be equally as viable as exploration alone (or mixing the two). Having ingredients, etc. available in stash rooms is good - I just don't want to see missions then cut back so that stash rooms become the only good solution.

Once I'm in the bubble, I have to do the specific goal they give me -- there's no room to be flexible or try new ideas.

I find that I will try new ways to see if they beat missions better (different spell and enchants load outs, different tactics, etc.) so that doesn't really hold for me. In addition, I'd argue that exploration has the same problem when you're trying for a particular thing; if you want arcane ingredients, you are pretty much going to have to run through stash room after stash room until you have what you want.

Offline Bluddy

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Re: Thoughts on New Crafting/Spells
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2012, 02:01:16 PM »
In addition, I'd argue that exploration has the same problem when you're trying for a particular thing; if you want arcane ingredients, you are pretty much going to have to run through stash room after stash room until you have what you want.

Except a) stash rooms are within buildings which are part of the randomly generated world so you encounter different things and b) you go from one random situation to another as you explore through the world looking for the right stash. Right now buildings aren't immensely interesting, but caves are pretty good ie. I want to get to the resources but there's a boss in my way or there are traps in my way etc.

I would personally like to see fewer buildings per area so areas are more memorable, but the point is that when you're out in the world, you get to sample the persistent randomness of the game's universe. In missions, you're confined to the predesigned bubble that is the mission.

Offline Misery

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Re: Thoughts on New Crafting/Spells
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2012, 07:25:49 PM »
In addition, I'd argue that exploration has the same problem when you're trying for a particular thing; if you want arcane ingredients, you are pretty much going to have to run through stash room after stash room until you have what you want.

Except a) stash rooms are within buildings which are part of the randomly generated world so you encounter different things and b) you go from one random situation to another as you explore through the world looking for the right stash. Right now buildings aren't immensely interesting, but caves are pretty good ie. I want to get to the resources but there's a boss in my way or there are traps in my way etc.

I would personally like to see fewer buildings per area so areas are more memorable, but the point is that when you're out in the world, you get to sample the persistent randomness of the game's universe. In missions, you're confined to the predesigned bubble that is the mission.


I wonder if they should consider putting more bosses in buildings in general.   Blocking the way to some stash rooms, perhaps.

Right now, the normal stash rooms have no risk or anything to get to them by default.   But the cave's gem rooms..... which provide an overly abundant resource.... require a boss fight to enter (usually).

I like that aspect of the caves;   what I DONT like about the caves is how same-y they all are, with the exception of the Shallows and Ocean, which are the ones that actually have caves that are very different.   Otherwise, the game seems to use the same generation type for any given cave.




Now, as for the random nature of the game, and the whole "go into stash after stash"...... one way or another, this is unavoidable.   If you've got a game that uses alot of procedurally made content, the player is GOING to have to deal with that randomness in some way.  There really arent any games that get around this.  In Roguelikes, maybe you want a staff or something for your Wizard.... the game only hands you swords though, so guess what, you have to deal with it.  Or Minecraft;  trying to get diamonds often leads to alot of "Ok, try this area.... nope, nothing. Try the next area.... nope, nothing".

I think players that like this sort of game, with the randomness, should be prepared to deal with it.   In the case of this game, I know that if I'm wanting something or other that is gotten in a stash, I'm gonna be doing some searching, and it might take some time.   There are benefits though;  first of all, I'll get shards by smashing enemies along the way.  Secondly, I'll often get some OTHER resources along the way to finding the exact one I want.   And this can lead to something interesting, where player decisions become influenced by the RNG.   Maybe I'm looking for Magma to get Fireball, but I find a Welkin Gel instead;  suddenly I realize, I have the other ingredients, I could use THIS to get Energy Orb or Ice Cross;  they arent Fireball, but they have their own uses, and could be useful for the stuff I want to do.    Things like that. 

And the previous way the game was, this really didn't happen.   You found a mission that had exactly what you want, you did the mission, boom, done.    And it's true, the missions were pretty much ALL you did.

Now, as I've said before, I have no problems with the mission system.  I enjoy them.  But I want the exploration to be just as important;  I like the Metroid-y aspect in general, and I like exploring new places and seeing what I can find.

Right now, this part is balanced sooooooooooo much better than it was before.   And really, I dont think that reducing the mission count on the world-map is gonna hurt that as much as some seem to think.    The idea of having the count be influenced by the presence of Wind Shelters is actually a really good idea.



There was, though, one other problem I always had with the missions:  Their location simply doesnt matter enough, with the possible exception of some Lava Flats missions (a stealth mission in there, for example, would require a heat suit, but stealth missions in any other chunk were not).  This fact really did make them seem a bit TOO seperated from the rest of the game.   I'd absolutely love to have the region the mission is in actually influence it in more ways than before.  The only real way they DID matter was the selection of enemy types that might appear.    In some missions this was enough of a difference (anachronism, and the boss missions), but in others, it really made very, very little difference (like the Freefall, or Meteor types).   Wouldnt mind seeing more of a connection here beyond just enemy selection.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Thoughts on New Crafting/Spells
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2012, 12:40:07 PM »
The issue with crafting was that it never really required much work to get the needed ingredients. MMOs are usually the staple of crafting systems that feel worthwhile (WoW vanilla being a huge exception, with most crafted stuff being absolute trash and having the need to craft thousands of things just to level up). So I'm all for removing the crafting entirely, tbh. Because either you wanted a spell NOW and had to go out and get the materials (meh), or you needed a spell and already had all the stuff to craft it, its spouse, sister, aunt and uncle at the same time.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Thoughts on New Crafting/Spells
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2012, 07:12:53 PM »
The issue with crafting was that it never really required much work to get the needed ingredients. MMOs are usually the staple of crafting systems that feel worthwhile (WoW vanilla being a huge exception, with most crafted stuff being absolute trash and having the need to craft thousands of things just to level up). So I'm all for removing the crafting entirely, tbh. Because either you wanted a spell NOW and had to go out and get the materials (meh), or you needed a spell and already had all the stuff to craft it, its spouse, sister, aunt and uncle at the same time.

Really?

I dunno, crafting in, well, damn near any MMO always seemed astonishingly awful to me.   So very, very many of them use the model of, ok, craft 10,000 Really Terrible Hats, and you'll get the skill to make the Not Quite as Terrible Hat, craft 349067934617 of those and you can make the Almost a Decent Hat..... and so on.    I've played alot of MMOs, and I think I end up ignoring the crafting in literally *all* of them.

I think the crafting as it is works now BECAUSE you have to search the materials out, though I do think there needs to be more of a gap between common/uncommon spells.  That's the only issue I see with it currently.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Thoughts on New Crafting/Spells
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2012, 07:49:43 PM »
I rather liked the crafting in WoW because the gear was genuinely useful and the amount of crafts required to reach the necessary proficiency was significant and maybe a little too much but not way out there.  I probably had more fun building up my various alts to get all the crafting skills and internal "supply chain" going than I did with most of the rest of the game (group instancing with friends was more fun).

But I started around the time WotLK came out and never had to experience the way it was in vanilla.
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Offline omegajasam

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Re: Thoughts on New Crafting/Spells
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2012, 07:50:42 AM »
Instead of just removing missions, could we get some (but a reduced amount) of the missions seeding in windy areas once they don't fit in the cleared area? Had some fun with an essential hp time limit due to the wind in the past.

My main gripe on pritty much the whole new system, is while it's excelent for single player, I tend to play multiplayer these days with people who liked to split up and do /diffrent types/ of content.

We would often have one guy running missions who liked that, one person cave delving, one person gathering cherries e.t.c. And the end result is everyone got new spells, buildings and such (and a rather faster progression rate)

The 'freedom' of doing multiple things feels a little strained now. But on the other hand the new mechanics are cresting and look like they have a lot of potential.



Offline Brise Bonbons

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Re: Thoughts on New Crafting/Spells
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2012, 02:53:04 PM »
I don't feel like the new mechanics hurt splitting up as much as I feared. Spells are in great supply due to missions (too much so, really. What are we supposed to do with all of them?), guardian scrolls and buildings go into the central pool (don't they?), and if I'm really feeling like holding down spelunking and crafting for the whole team, I can do that and trade them the spells they want once I've crafted them. I'm OK with this.

I have two concerns right now:

Firstly, as I said, way too many spells in my inventory and nothing to do with them. Am I missing a "sell" option, or some way to disenchant them? Often there will be a mission type I enjoy that gives a spell I already have, so I feel like doing that mission is just a waste of time.

As an outgrowth of the above, I might have ball lightning and an uncommon orb, but I feel like there should be a way to put them together. I might not have the crafting mats to make an uncommon ball lightning, but I feel like running all over creation trying to find them is just an irritation when I already have 3 of them I'm currently not using.

I feel like a disenchant option wouldn't go amiss. Obviously you shouldn't get full resources back, but even one random component material might help alleviate the above frustration.

Just a thought. Strikes me that it might be too effective, and everyone would just grind missions to get spells to D/E rather than go exploring caves.

One thing I will say about the new system of resource gathering: It was not at all intuitive to us that resource nodes were dropping a separate item for each person in the chunk, and it took some time to figure this out. It also began to feel very frustrating that we all had to run to every corner of the room to each individually pick up the materials. Can't we like, put it in our bag and distribute them back at the settlement?

Offline tigersfan

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Re: Thoughts on New Crafting/Spells
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2012, 03:09:13 PM »
The ability to easily get rid of excess spells is planned. Just not here yet.

As for the way the resource grabbing works. Sure, we COULD let you put it all in your bag and distribute it later, and that might work for you guys, but, if you were playing with folks that you don't know and aren't as nice, it could lead to a lot of "ninja loot" type issues.

Offline Misery

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Re: Thoughts on New Crafting/Spells
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2012, 03:11:28 AM »
Instead of just removing missions, could we get some (but a reduced amount) of the missions seeding in windy areas once they don't fit in the cleared area? Had some fun with an essential hp time limit due to the wind in the past.

I think this might be a good idea.   20 missions available, but maybe 7 of them happen to be in the wind-storm..... they are THERE if the player really wants them, but it's not quite as easy of a decision as it otherwise would be. 

yeah, I could definitely go for that one.


Offline BenMiff

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Re: Thoughts on New Crafting/Spells
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2012, 05:26:01 AM »
Ooooh, I do like the idea of windstorm missions.

I'd also say that the overmap shouldn't generate multiples of the same spell so that the windstorm missions have an actual meaning in that you won't just be able to pick up the same reward in a non-windstorm mission.