Author Topic: Spell balance!  (Read 6912 times)

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2013, 01:06:56 PM »
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But, don't you agree that at least some global cooldown is needed?

Oh, yes. Absolutely, some small cooldown is needed to prevent button mashing. But as long as it is fairly small perhaps 0.2 as Madcow suggests, it should work fine. With a global cooldown for alternate spell firing (the standard per spell cooldown would be unchanged) the important thing is that it is consistent. You are then letting the player know that if they want to combo spells together, this is the timing they need rather than expecting them to learn all the different combinations of timing.

Metal slug has a very small cooldown. Just enough to prevent the player from mashing grenade and fire simultaneously.

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The cooldown issue related to switching spells has been on mantis for some time

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=10070

Just in case you feel inclined to vote ...

Completely missed that report. Thanks Nas1m. Supported.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 01:10:21 PM by Pepisolo »

Offline tigersfan

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2013, 05:43:33 PM »
Here you go, just in:

* Spells should no longer prevent other spells from firing after the .2 second global cooldown.
** The only exception to this are the intentionally paired Mass and Burst spells.

Offline Winge

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2013, 05:52:17 PM »
Here you go, just in:

* Spells should no longer prevent other spells from firing after the .2 second global cooldown.
** The only exception to this are the intentionally paired Mass and Burst spells.

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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2013, 06:04:17 PM »
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Here you go, just in:

* Spells should no longer prevent other spells from firing after the .2 second global cooldown.
** The only exception to this are the intentionally paired Mass and Burst spells.

Nice! Very much looking forward to testing this change.

Offline tigersfan

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2013, 06:12:50 PM »
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Here you go, just in:

* Spells should no longer prevent other spells from firing after the .2 second global cooldown.
** The only exception to this are the intentionally paired Mass and Burst spells.

Nice! Very much looking forward to testing this change.

Please test it into oblivion. Truth is, I'm not really a programmer, but, I made this change, so, bugs may abound!

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2013, 06:18:20 PM »
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Please test it into oblivion.

Most certainly will do. Thanks!

Offline tigersfan

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2013, 06:37:09 PM »
Also, it's possible that some of the changes I made will have enemies firing spells off way too fast. Let me know if you see any of that too.

Offline x4000

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2013, 06:47:44 PM »
I've checked the code and I don't see anything amiss, but a lot of testing never hurt anything. ;)
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2013, 09:54:26 PM »
Very early feedback (15 mins or so), the controls feel a lot nicer now. Much more responsive. You can combo spells together a lot more. Great! Blast attacks can now block your own attacks, though, and you get that "your spell was blocked by an enemy message". Also, have snake spells changed, the snaking effect is absent from horizontal shots, the bounces still work, though.

Also the entrop primary doesn't fire fast any more, not sure if that is a bug.

More feedback when I test more tomorrow. Good work!

Offline Misery

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2013, 03:00:59 AM »
One major thing for the melee spells:   Pleeeeeease make it possible to just hold down the button with these and keep firing them.   I say this mainly because I almost literally cannot use them the way they are;  constant repeated button presses, done too many times in a row can make my arm flare up bad.   I end up just trying to crash through Shallows areas (or putting them on Featherweight and skipping them outright) just to avoid that.   Also, there are situations where the player might want to use it like on a slope and repeatedly punch at an angle to keep hitting something there.... and the current implementation means you're GOING to slide down a bit or just move a little during all the punching no matter what you do, if you have to do it at an angle.   I've had more than a couple of otherwise totally avoidable deaths because of trying to punch/whip at an angle.


EDIT:   Also, Debris Field..... this could use some sort of major buff.  I almost never see this actually kill anything (or hit anything, much of the time).   I could fire it like 5 times in a row near a bunch of enemies, and have it kill none of them.   It's really the only ammo spell that's at all bad right now.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 07:51:33 AM by Misery »

Offline Nanashi

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2013, 11:02:25 AM »
Although the recent change to their calibers has helped charge spells quite a bit, they still have 2 very important issues.

1) They cannot be held indefinitely because they automatically fire after a certain time. This makes them very difficult to use properly against enemies with limited vulnerability windows. They are possibly the most difficult spells to use in the game as a result (far more than bombs, which are relatively braindead and consist of getting -projectile duration equipment and holding down the fire key while running away)

2) Their damage could use a buff and be at least comparable to the damage a primary shot would cause if held down for as long as it took the spell to charge to its current size. Using them doesn't make sense when they barely do more damage fully charged than a comparable homing spell from another class - at least homing spells are instant and the delay is backloaded rather than frontloaded.

I believe both points combined make them high-risk low-reward spells. Either of them should probably be addressed.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 11:04:51 AM by Nanashi »

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2013, 11:17:44 AM »
Although the recent change to their calibers has helped charge spells quite a bit, they still have 2 very important issues.

1) They cannot be held indefinitely because they automatically fire after a certain time. This makes them very difficult to use properly against enemies with limited vulnerability windows. They are possibly the most difficult spells to use in the game as a result (far more than bombs, which are relatively braindead and consist of getting -projectile duration equipment and holding down the fire key while running away)

2) Their damage could use a buff and be at least comparable to the damage a primary shot would cause if held down for as long as it took the spell to charge to its current size. Using them doesn't make sense when they barely do more damage fully charged than a comparable homing spell from another class - at least homing spells are instant and the delay is backloaded rather than frontloaded.

I believe both points combined make them high-risk low-reward spells. Either of them should probably be addressed.

I agree that it would be nice if you could indefinitely hold a charge. I find the current damage fine. Now that caliber increases too it would be a bit OP to also give them a higher DPS than a primary, I think. Also, homing shots as far as I'm aware do considerably less damage per hit than a fully charged shot.

Overall I agree though that making you able to hold the charge indefinitely would be an improvement. It always annoys me to see the shot fly out of my hands without my say so.

Offline Nanashi

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2013, 11:32:09 AM »
I was never arguing for higher dps, I was arguing for comparable dps. You have to balance risk with reward, which is why I said it was an issue only with BOTH points being true. Right now, since they fly out of your hands, they're too difficult and unreliable to use for the kind of damage they do because there's a high chance that they'll go whiff when the enemy is still being out of range/invulnerable and you'll do a great whopping zero damage.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2013, 11:43:01 AM »
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I was never arguing for higher dps, I was arguing for comparable dps.

You're right. I actually meant that with even with a comparable DPS, due to the increase in caliber of charge shots per level it would be too much of a buff.

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Right now, since they fly out of your hands, they're too difficult and unreliable to use for the kind of damage they do because there's a high chance that they'll go whiff when the enemy is still being out of range/invulnerable and you'll do a great whopping zero damage.

I agree. I would prefer them to be able to be indefinitely held.

Offline x4000

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2013, 11:48:00 AM »
* The amount of time you can hold a charge shot at full charge is no longer limited to 5 seconds.
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