Author Topic: Spell balance!  (Read 6802 times)

Offline Winge

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2013, 06:54:47 PM »
Anybody got any thoughts on making cooldown spell independent? A few times I actually use a spell and then try to react quickly by firing off another spell, but I can't do it and it is a little frustrating. Making the cooldown spell independent would increase the fluidity of the combat a fair bit I think. Yes, you could then chain combos of different spells, but isn't that really a good thing? Actually, is there really a reason why cooldown on one spell would carry over to a different one?

I second that motion.  Or reduce the cooldown that one spell causes another.  Switching spells is frustrating because of that alone (was really bad under the old 'combo' system).
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Offline madcow

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2013, 07:10:38 PM »
I actually also agree about separate cool downs on spells, and changing them to not affect other.

Offline Misery

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2013, 09:38:44 PM »
I'm guessing that the cooldown on spells is probably another balance thing.... it prevents players from, say, just firing all 4 spells at once, which could be used as something of an exploit to deal massive damage.   Also probably used to balance out the spells individually as well....  like the heavy cooldown on the seeker spells, it prevents the player from firing a weak shot that cant miss (or isnt supposed to miss anyway), to cause hit-stun, and then instantly diving in with the other spells to do heavy damage.   Without the cooldowns, some spells would get dramatically overpowered for reasons like that.

I'd be against changing any of that.   Cooldowns CAN be annoying in any game that uses them, but they tend to be there for very good reasons.


However..... what about instead, perhaps perks that might reduce the cooldowns a bit?   That might be a nice idea, just so long as the reductions dont go overboard.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2013, 10:25:56 PM »
Quote
I'm guessing that the cooldown on spells is probably another balance thing.... it prevents players from, say, just firing all 4 spells at once, which could be used as something of an exploit to deal massive damage.   Also probably used to balance out the spells individually as well....  like the heavy cooldown on the seeker spells, it prevents the player from firing a weak shot that cant miss (or isnt supposed to miss anyway), to cause hit-stun, and then instantly diving in with the other spells to do heavy damage.   Without the cooldowns, some spells would get dramatically overpowered for reasons like that.

I'd be against changing any of that.   Cooldowns CAN be annoying in any game that uses them, but they tend to be there for very good reasons.

For me the current cooldown setup seems to be stifling combat fluidity a bit too much. It can be good to have some restrictions in place for situations like those you have you have outlined, but at the moment I feel too restrained. I don't think that there's anything wrong with being able to fire off a homing shot and then be able to follow the attack in to some extent with a different attack rather than having to wait for the strait jacket to be removed first. I want to be able to mix my attacks up as much as possible -- within reason! 

Offline Misery

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2013, 06:56:17 AM »
Quote
I'm guessing that the cooldown on spells is probably another balance thing.... it prevents players from, say, just firing all 4 spells at once, which could be used as something of an exploit to deal massive damage.   Also probably used to balance out the spells individually as well....  like the heavy cooldown on the seeker spells, it prevents the player from firing a weak shot that cant miss (or isnt supposed to miss anyway), to cause hit-stun, and then instantly diving in with the other spells to do heavy damage.   Without the cooldowns, some spells would get dramatically overpowered for reasons like that.

I'd be against changing any of that.   Cooldowns CAN be annoying in any game that uses them, but they tend to be there for very good reasons.

For me the current cooldown setup seems to be stifling combat fluidity a bit too much. It can be good to have some restrictions in place for situations like those you have you have outlined, but at the moment I feel too restrained. I don't think that there's anything wrong with being able to fire off a homing shot and then be able to follow the attack in to some extent with a different attack rather than having to wait for the strait jacket to be removed first. I want to be able to mix my attacks up as much as possible -- within reason!


Perhaps the matter isnt so much the way the cooldowns work, but instead the AMOUNT of cooldown on certain spells.    Since you mention it, yeah, I know exactly what you mean with the homing spells.... they really do have a problem with that!   Every now and then I'll fire one, and then afterwards wonder why my controls are glitching out, hah.    So some of the cooldown numbers might be worth looking at for better balance.   

Offline Mick

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2013, 07:21:51 AM »
There should just be a global cooldown. That way, you cannot fire all your spells simultaneously, but a long cooldown spell won't "block" a fast firing spell.

I think it'd be much more fun to 'weave' the long cooldown spells in the middle of your spam instead of just being shut down completely.

EDIT: And yes, more than once I've thought my controls were 'glitch' out after using a long cooldown spell. I guarantee many players will find this disconcerting. I'm trying to think if there is even much precedent for it in other side scrollers, none come to mind.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 07:25:24 AM by Mick »

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2013, 11:08:35 AM »
Quote
Perhaps the matter isnt so much the way the cooldowns work, but instead the AMOUNT of cooldown on certain spells.    Since you mention it, yeah, I know exactly what you mean with the homing spells.... they really do have a problem with that!   Every now and then I'll fire one, and then afterwards wonder why my controls are glitching out, hah.    So some of the cooldown numbers might be worth looking at for better balance.

If it is possible to fix this occasional sense of being restrained by tweaking the cooldowns of specific problem spells a little then it might be the easiest solution. The main ones that stand out for me as being problematic are homing shots and crescent walls. Wouldn't reducing these cooldowns, though, make the spells themselves more spammable? If so, then that is not really the intended behaviour. It seems like some of this clunkiness is an unintended by-product of having cooldowns from one spell also affect other spells. For example, let's say that I were to use a homing shot and then attempt to defend against an enemy projectile with one of the high caliber touch spells, I simply couldn't do it for a few seconds. Surely these defensive spells are meant to be available pretty much at all times?

Maybe something along the lines of what Mick suggests might work. Possibly a global extra cooldown that only affects the rate at which you can fire off different spells. Just something very basic in order to prevent spamming 4 spells at once etc. This would still stop you from spamming homing shots, but it would let you weave together different combos of attacks more effectively.
 

Offline tigersfan

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2013, 05:32:48 PM »
Just in for the new version!

* The Clinging spells now have separate cool downs in addition to the global cooldown.
** This means that while one of these spells can only be fired once every 1.5 seconds for example, other spells can still be fired in a more reasonable time.

Offline Mick

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2013, 05:41:25 PM »
Does that mean it won't work for spells like campfire?

Offline tigersfan

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2013, 05:50:37 PM »
Does that mean it won't work for spells like campfire?

You can already fire spells really quickly after campfire.

Offline tigersfan

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2013, 11:44:24 AM »
How are Fusillades feeling for folks now?

Also, in case you aren't following the changelog, this is just in:

* All charge spells now have higher calibers when you let them charge up.
** Each charge spell has 4 levels to it. The first level (and fastest to fire) is unchanged, but, the caliber of this spell goes up more for each successive level.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2013, 12:20:00 PM »
Quote
Just in for the new version!

* The Clinging spells now have separate cool downs in addition to the global cooldown.
** This means that while one of these spells can only be fired once every 1.5 seconds for example, other spells can still be fired in a more reasonable

time.

I like the new change. Being able to shoot a homing attack and then follow it in with other attacks helps to make the combat feel much more responsive.

The only problem is that I like the change so much that it is making me think about the potential of a having a separate global cooldown for alternate attacks for ALL spells. The more I think about the current setup of having standard cooldowns apply to other attacks, the less I like it. It is really restricting the ability to weave different combos together effectively (as well as reducing the responsiveness of the controls). This is because different combinations of attacks under this system have different timings required that would need to be learned by the player to effectively put spells together. Given the multitude of different spell combinations this is tricky. If you were to have one uniform short cooldown (just to prevent more than one spell being spammed at once) that applied to alternate attacks the player could know exactly when they could time their combos and there would also be an incentive to do so.

I believe this seemingly small change has a chance to elevate the controls to a higher level.

As for drawbacks, giving the player this increased level of control is of course going to make them perform better than they otherwise would under the old system. However, I don't really see this as making the game easier, you are just allowing the player to perform better. There will be situations where a higher DPS can achieved through comboing, for example by firing a blast attack then following up with an illumination shot, but that small increase in DPS might even be a just reward for that little bit of extra skill shown by the player.

Yes, this would change things up a little balance wise, although not too much I don't think, but I truly believe that this might have a chance of adding a whole new dimension to the combat. OK, I can't guarantee that it'll 100% work, but if the coding required is not too excessive then it should be worth trying at least.

For research, I was playing a little Metal Slug 3 and the thing that stands out is the responsiveness of the controls. You can throw a grenade and a split second later you can shoot or vice versa. Imagine if there was a 1 second cooldown on shooting after you threw that grenade. The combat would lose a lot of its responsiveness.





Offline tigersfan

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2013, 12:38:54 PM »
Well, I think a global cooldown of some sort is important, otherwise what is to prevent the player from just button mashing to win?

That's not to say we're unwilling to make changes here. But, don't you agree that at least some global cooldown is needed?

Offline madcow

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2013, 12:48:28 PM »
0.2 seconds seems to be the typical cooldown on spells, so that seems reasonable as a global cooldown.

Offline nas1m

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Re: Spell balance!
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2013, 01:06:25 PM »
The cooldown issue related to switching spells has been on mantis for some time

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=10070

Just in case you feel inclined to vote ...
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