Author Topic: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?  (Read 3989 times)

Offline madcow

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,151
Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2013, 12:12:16 PM »
Feather fall could just die yeah.  Honestly I don't think it would be overpowered if the jump height and movement speed perks were combined, the movement perks are in general niche enough that I don't tend to take them.

Offline Pepisolo

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,508
Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2013, 12:15:24 PM »
Quote
In terms of range perks, those would be incredibly overpowered, so those are specifically excluded for that reason.

Not sure about incredibly overpowered.  If I had a straight choice between a 50% damage boost or a 25% range boost for example, I'd probably still go for the damage I think.  Choosing power would mean a more offensively minded approach, range would be defensive.  I can see that you'd have to be careful with it, though. It would be hard to add extra range to stuff like Entropic Touch and a few of the other weirder spells, though, so caliber perks is the much safer option.

Offline madcow

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,151
Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2013, 12:18:16 PM »
The issue I can see with range is there could become a point where you can basically cheese snipe bosses or monsters. Snake, homing, or even reckless spells with range for instance.

Offline x4000

  • Chris Park, Arcen Games Founder and Lead Designer
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,404
Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2013, 12:20:07 PM »
The issue I can see with range is there could become a point where you can basically cheese snipe bosses or monsters. Snake, homing, or even reckless spells with range for instance.

Bingo.  Too many exploitable edge cases along those lines.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Billick

  • Full Member Mark III
  • ***
  • Posts: 244
Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2013, 12:20:48 PM »
The one reservation I'd have about removing combos is that it promoted more diverse spell usage, although you could argue that it's kind of an artificial way to do that, and most players didn't even know about that mechanic to begin with. As far as perks go, I feel like damage and health are king currently.  Featherfall is almost worthless, or possibly less than worthless depending on the situation. 

Offline madcow

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,151
Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2013, 12:28:35 PM »
The one reservation I'd have about removing combos is that it promoted more diverse spell usage, although you could argue that it's kind of an artificial way to do that, and most players didn't even know about that mechanic to begin with. As far as perks go, I feel like damage and health are king currently.  Featherfall is almost worthless, or possibly less than worthless depending on the situation.

I had the same thought about concentration (which honestly would make more sense called combo heh), but I think enemy diversity is enough that we have that effect without needing an artificial reason. If for some reason it's not enough concentration could be modified to require variety to build past a certain point.

Offline Pepisolo

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,508
Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2013, 12:28:47 PM »
The issue I can see with range is there could become a point where you can basically cheese snipe bosses or monsters. Snake, homing, or even reckless spells with range for instance.

Bingo.  Too many exploitable edge cases along those lines.

Actually, you're right yeah. I forgot to take into account that perks are stackable, too. Which might allow you to shoot over a screen's distance etc.

Offline madcow

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,151
Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2013, 12:54:30 PM »
The more I think about it. The more I think some of the movement perks ought to be combined. Jump height/movement speed especially. Not sure if swimming ought to be merged there, but it could use some loving - maybe a universal damage increase (or a reistance from incoming damage) while in water.  Slow fall could just be removed, or -maybe- combined with swimming instead of the damage change I mentioned.  In general all the movement abilities are of niche/limited use.  I might take movement just because I hate walking slow but that's it.

Edit: and didn't mean to derail the combo thread quite so much into a perk thread. Oops!
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 01:03:53 PM by madcow »

Offline x4000

  • Chris Park, Arcen Games Founder and Lead Designer
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,404
Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2013, 01:03:24 PM »
The movement perks are not really meant to be super useful, but they are useful.  I don't think that trying to combine them all together would really be a positive thing in the end, because frankly I would want jump height but not extra movement speed, etc.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Panopticon

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 274
Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2013, 02:01:10 PM »
This Concentration system sounds pretty sweet, and I love the idea of caliber perks, since I do try to make use of the caliber system.

And for the record, I was aware of the combo system and it wasn't the most terrible thing but it had some strange effects on choices I'd make concerning mage classes. Aquaurgist is one of my favorites in some ways. I love Sea Slider's versatility and Water Sine is a really fun spell to play with. However when you combine them with the combo system they suffer because without two direct shot spells to alternate between the combo system is very difficult to manage. So in a lot of cases where I wanted to game in the extra punch of the combo system (fighting inside mainly where mobility is reduced) I would end up going with something like Forgician or Draftlock where I could utilize the combo system more easily. So in other words this focus system will reward my style of play much more, and I suspect most players will appreciate it. The combo system has always kind of bugged me for these reasons but I liked the idea behind it enough to wrestle with the unwieldy parts and I didn't have any suggestions for anything better. So yeah, I like the sound of these ideas and I'm looking forward to testing them. This could go a long way to dealing with how spongy some of the monsters feel too.

Offline madcow

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,151
Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2013, 02:07:50 PM »
The removal of old combos might also make fusillade spells actually worthwhile, it's a nontrivial buff to them.

Offline x4000

  • Chris Park, Arcen Games Founder and Lead Designer
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,404
Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2013, 02:13:29 PM »
Oh yeah, that's a huge thing for them.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Penumbra

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 464
Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2013, 02:37:14 PM »
One thing that has been a minor annoyance to me is the display of current life. It just being a number at the bottom of the screen makes it harder to "get a feel for" it and requires me to read it. A bar that changes color and looks half full is easier to read out of the corner of my than a number.

This new display of concentration "overlife" might lead to a more user-friendly UI element. ;)

Next, hit points are currently "refunded" to the player on a random basis after an enemy is killed. There is a little strategy to hoarding a small number of unused health orbs, but other than that, random.

Also, it only occurs after an enemy is defeated, which means monsters with a larger health pool require the player to survive for a longer time without health pickups.  Some games put weak trash mobs around big monsters so the player has something to farm life from while dealing with the main threat.



If I understand the current suggestion correctly, any attacks done while at full health (i.e. hitting while not getting hit) charges the concentration bar, leading to bonus damage. If a hit is taken, the player's life goes down and concentration is lost. If you had a bar that was 125% as long as the player's current life total, it could over-fill while dealing damage at full life.



To hopefully bring this rambling and slightly incoherent post to some semblance of a conclusion, I will (finally) make my point ;D. The randomization of damage in AI War was detrimental to the strategic game because you couldn't plan as carefully. What if, instead of hoping for life drops from defeated enemies, you instead gained a form of "life drain" affect. When dealing damage to an enemy, your life bar would increase. This allows prolonged fights against large monsters without the need for the trash farming, and allows monsters to be individually balanced. Any life gained while at maximum continues to fill the bar, into the concentration range. This part will increase damage done, but will be lost over time, down to the current full life amount.

This would encourage the player in the following ways:
  • Fighting skillfully
          - Not getting hit will increase damage output
  • Move quickly/efficently
          - The concentration bonus will not last forever. Since it wears out, just building it up on easy monsters won't help
  • Gaining life by fighting, not being lucky
          - There will still be a fixed amount of possible health available in a chunk, but it allows more planning


One huge bonus is that this will be a single, unified system. There is only one bar: health. It fills in one way: dealing damage.

With a noticeable demarcation where the full X bars end, and the over bar starts, the system will nearly explain itself to the user. Maybe the bar glows in the concentration area, indicating the bonus. Seeing it decrease back down to full will show that it is a timed bonus. This also shows that the concentration bonus can be only had when already at full life without having to put up a text box explaining it. Taking damage is detrimental to your concentration bonus, which is also evident by it being part of the health bar.

Offline x4000

  • Chris Park, Arcen Games Founder and Lead Designer
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,404
Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2013, 02:43:41 PM »
That's a fairly complicated redo, and to be honest the current system is very much like what is done in Metroid, Zelda, and a lot of other games.  Castlevania.  Etc.  You get a randomized reward, and it may or may not be what you want, for when you kill enemies.  The concentration here only fills when you kill enemies while also at full health, so it's an extra layer on top of that for rewarding extra careful play.

"Getting lucky" isn't really that big of a factor here, because all monsters drop either health or ammo -- never nothing, never anything else.  So the only way you didn't get health is if you just got ammo.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Penumbra

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 464
Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2013, 02:52:56 PM »
I was trying to go for simpler and unified, not more complicated. But, yes, from a development viewpoint, it is a more complicated change.

I really do dislike that health is just a number, but that's a visual nit. And the thought of just shoving another number down there for concentration level....  ::)

But, I see you are already implementing it, so, yay new things!  :D