Author Topic: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?  (Read 3889 times)

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2013, 09:04:29 PM »
While that's a cool idea doctorfrog. I don't think it would really work in randomly generated levels. Would need to be handcrafted ones.
Gonna throw this out there real quick: Torchlight 2 actually does do this. All of the enemies have a purpose in the randomly generated and strung together chunks, and they're generally all in different places. It's procedurally generated, but you'll find hunters hunting, people sitting around a camp fire, or some warriors of other races exit their huts to spawn into the world. The problem with this, is the fact that Torchlight 2 probably had waaaaaay more of a team and budget and stuff to put in that insane level of polish. I can't imagine that kind of polish here, with how much time it would take. They'd probably be better off throwing another AI War expansion in that same time frame.
Also, the enemies don't really spawn in so there's that.

Offline x4000

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Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2013, 09:39:01 AM »
I guess to use a "large" example (anything else would likely be smaller than this):

One thing I can sort of see working could be having a number that would affect a penalty to your spell damage (I guess we could call it "composure" for now). It could be justified in the game as the idea that spells need concentration to cast well. Normally you'd have composure at 100% and you'd do your normal spell damage. However, if you take damage in any way then you'll take a hit to composure as well as your health, and having composure at less than 100% would temporarily reduce spell damage (maybe 0% would mean you do 75% of your normal damage). If you kill enemies you recover composure.
Perhaps if you used an ammo spell, it would automatically max composure, which could get more use out of the ammo spell and fit with the idea of it as a "bomb" or "panic button".

I guess that would be at the bigger side of things, it probably wouldn't need to be as involved to accomplish the same thing.

Basically it would be something that wouldn't really kill you for ignoring it, but at the same time plays off the idea that gamers tend to like the idea of refining their play in little ways, especially if there's a small benefit to it.

Eh, I'm not sure I really like the idea of losing damage as you take health. If anything like this were to be done, I would rather it be the other way around - a bonus of extra damage if you pick up health drops while already at full health. Rather than losing power when you take damage.

This wouldn't really impact balance, because you would need to be -very- skilled to manage not taking damage long enough to build up a decent combo meter. On the flip side, it would be hard enough to build up a combo meter that it might not be worth implementing, heh.

Thinking about this thread some more, I am inclined toward the concentration model as suggested by Professor Paul1290 and efined by madcow as being an interesting sort of mechanic.

I agree with everything that Misery has said, but there is also one mechanic that is currently in the game which bugs me: and that is the combo system that is currently there.  Right now the combo system really punishes things like charge shots, and the combo system is so opaque that probably many of you don't even know it exists.  In short, every shot that hits an enemy gets remembered, and then any further shots of that same type do half damage to the enemy.  There are some perks that let you reduce this penalty.

It's not a horrible system, but it does set my teeth on edge a little bit (mainly because I'm the one who came up with it and I'm less than thrilled with it).  If we did the following, I think it might be potentially better than it currently is:

- No more combo system, aka no more penalty to the current shot if it's the same type as the prior shot that just hit the enemy.
- All player spells drop to .75 of their current power to compensate (if you normally blast an enemy with two shots to kill it, you were doing 1.5 damage instead of 2 damage, for instance; any further shots of the same type, such as with a fusillade, would have been dropping down to approaching 50% effectiveness in the current system).
- Put a visible "Concentration" meter on the screen, down by the health meter.  It starts out at zero.
- Ammo drops would add to your concentration AND your ammo when you are already at full health.
- Anytime you take damage from any source, if your concentration > 0 it goes down by 1.  If you die, it goes all the way to 0.
- Max concentration would normally be something like 3, with the perks that currently are helping reduce the combo penalty adding concentration points (so I think that would max out at 5 or 6 if you took those perks, can't recall for sure).
- For each 1 concentration that you have, you do 25% extra damage on all your shots.


This trades out a mechanic that is opaque (the combo system) for one that is very visible (right there on the hud).  Supporting what Misery was saying in a lot of ways, this would actually help to encourage the players to be more careful and tactical, since there is an on-hud system right there that is rewarding them for doing that.  But like madcow says, this is a bonus and not a penalty -- you're getting rewarded for doing well, not punished for doing averagely.

These all strike me as good refinements on the system we already have, without trying to get gimmicky or majorly overhaul the entire game or something.  Which seems very much in line with the Professor's original intents in creating this thread.  Thoughts?
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Offline Misery

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Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2013, 10:00:05 AM »
I guess to use a "large" example (anything else would likely be smaller than this):

One thing I can sort of see working could be having a number that would affect a penalty to your spell damage (I guess we could call it "composure" for now). It could be justified in the game as the idea that spells need concentration to cast well. Normally you'd have composure at 100% and you'd do your normal spell damage. However, if you take damage in any way then you'll take a hit to composure as well as your health, and having composure at less than 100% would temporarily reduce spell damage (maybe 0% would mean you do 75% of your normal damage). If you kill enemies you recover composure.
Perhaps if you used an ammo spell, it would automatically max composure, which could get more use out of the ammo spell and fit with the idea of it as a "bomb" or "panic button".

I guess that would be at the bigger side of things, it probably wouldn't need to be as involved to accomplish the same thing.

Basically it would be something that wouldn't really kill you for ignoring it, but at the same time plays off the idea that gamers tend to like the idea of refining their play in little ways, especially if there's a small benefit to it.

Eh, I'm not sure I really like the idea of losing damage as you take health. If anything like this were to be done, I would rather it be the other way around - a bonus of extra damage if you pick up health drops while already at full health. Rather than losing power when you take damage.

This wouldn't really impact balance, because you would need to be -very- skilled to manage not taking damage long enough to build up a decent combo meter. On the flip side, it would be hard enough to build up a combo meter that it might not be worth implementing, heh.

Thinking about this thread some more, I am inclined toward the concentration model as suggested by Professor Paul1290 and efined by madcow as being an interesting sort of mechanic.

I agree with everything that Misery has said, but there is also one mechanic that is currently in the game which bugs me: and that is the combo system that is currently there.  Right now the combo system really punishes things like charge shots, and the combo system is so opaque that probably many of you don't even know it exists.  In short, every shot that hits an enemy gets remembered, and then any further shots of that same type do half damage to the enemy.  There are some perks that let you reduce this penalty.

It's not a horrible system, but it does set my teeth on edge a little bit (mainly because I'm the one who came up with it and I'm less than thrilled with it).  If we did the following, I think it might be potentially better than it currently is:

- No more combo system, aka no more penalty to the current shot if it's the same type as the prior shot that just hit the enemy.
- All player spells drop to .75 of their current power to compensate (if you normally blast an enemy with two shots to kill it, you were doing 1.5 damage instead of 2 damage, for instance; any further shots of the same type, such as with a fusillade, would have been dropping down to approaching 50% effectiveness in the current system).
- Put a visible "Concentration" meter on the screen, down by the health meter.  It starts out at zero.
- Ammo drops would add to your concentration AND your ammo when you are already at full health.
- Anytime you take damage from any source, if your concentration > 0 it goes down by 1.  If you die, it goes all the way to 0.
- Max concentration would normally be something like 3, with the perks that currently are helping reduce the combo penalty adding concentration points (so I think that would max out at 5 or 6 if you took those perks, can't recall for sure).
- For each 1 concentration that you have, you do 25% extra damage on all your shots.


This trades out a mechanic that is opaque (the combo system) for one that is very visible (right there on the hud).  Supporting what Misery was saying in a lot of ways, this would actually help to encourage the players to be more careful and tactical, since there is an on-hud system right there that is rewarding them for doing that.  But like madcow says, this is a bonus and not a penalty -- you're getting rewarded for doing well, not punished for doing averagely.

These all strike me as good refinements on the system we already have, without trying to get gimmicky or majorly overhaul the entire game or something.  Which seems very much in line with the Professor's original intents in creating this thread.  Thoughts?



.......agh!   I knew there was SOMETHING weird about the damage values!  I thought my spells were glitching out all over the place, with the second shot doing less than the first.   That explains that  :P  You were probably right, I'm thinking most players had no idea such a thing was there.   I know I sure didn't, but the effects of the thing were definitely bugging me a bit.

This new thing sounds like a good idea though.

Are you going to have it so that 1 ammo drop always equals one concentration point?   Or so that it takes a couple of them to get one?  I ask this just due to the rate at which those drop;  it doesnt fill ammo up super fast, since you need quite a bunch of those items to refill that, but it'd fill this concentration thing up super fast, when enemies are dropping alot of those.

EDIT:   And I'll add that I DONT think the actual rate of the drops themselves should be changed at all.  That part is balanced out pretty well.


Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2013, 10:24:28 AM »
Quote
and the combo system is so opaque that probably many of you don't even know it exists.

You're right, actually. I'd completely forgotten the system existed. Trading out this for something else would surely be a good move.

Quote
For each 1 concentration that you have, you do 25% extra damage on all your shots.

How about a caliber boost, too?

Quote
Ammo drops would add to your concentration AND your ammo when you are already at full health.

Not sure about rolling these concentration boosts into ammo boxes.  How about your concentration increases from simply killing enemies, and reduces when you get hit? Edit: thinking about it a little more, I actually think I'd like something like this. It would be a kind of a system where chaining enemy kills untouched would result in you gaining greater power, kind of like a real combo system. Obviously,  you couldn't have 1 monster kill per concentration level, it'd need to be 3 or 5, something like that.




« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 10:44:44 AM by Pepisolo »

Offline MouldyK

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Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2013, 10:41:02 AM »
I have two words for the concentration thing: "Me Gusta" :3

This would be a bonus for those who are careful, expecially when going into a Level-Up Tower zone and makign sure your conentration is good enough to be able to get in a few good first strikes.

Offline x4000

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Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2013, 10:49:06 AM »
Ooh, I really like the change to making the concentration just from killing enemies when your health is full.  I think that is a better system, yeah.

Okay, here we go!
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2013, 10:51:07 AM »
Quote
Ooh, I really like the change to making the concentration just from killing enemies when your health is full.  I think that is a better system, yeah.

Okay, here we go!

This actually is a little exciting... looking forward to this. Thanks Prof, Madcow and others. Discussion is good.



Offline x4000

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Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2013, 10:54:11 AM »
Indeed!  Also, I forgot to mention it but I also like your caliber boost idea.  I'm planning on rolling that in as well.
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2013, 11:03:11 AM »
Indeed!  Also, I forgot to mention it but I also like your caliber boost idea.  I'm planning on rolling that in as well

Cool. Hopefully it will work fine, I can't see why not. Can't wait to test this new mechanic!

Offline madcow

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Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2013, 11:38:34 AM »
This sounds pretty awesome! Will need fine tuning but has potential to be great for sure.

Also!  Since caliber is getting rolled into the combo system, is there any chance of caliber perks? That would add a lot of tactical decisions on deciding between caliber, damage, or health perks. And it's bothered me as something ripe for a perk but lacking.

Offline x4000

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Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2013, 11:41:40 AM »
Welll... I don't really want to add any new perks in terms of number of perks -- that would start really changing the balance in terms of how long it takes to get through the game and how many perk tokens you get, etc.  So I'd only want to do this as a replacement for something else.  The perks for caliber could potentially replace the three featherweight perks, which definitely seem to be the least-interesting at the moment.

Thoughts?
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Offline Oralordos

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Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2013, 11:43:21 AM »
I agree that the featherweight perks are the least interesting at the moment. I don't think I've played enough recently to know if caliber perks would be something needed.

Offline x4000

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Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2013, 11:46:59 AM »
Well, so long as they are more interesting than featherweight we've improved things, right? :D
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2013, 11:52:20 AM »
Quote
Also!  Since caliber is getting rolled into the combo system, is there any chance of caliber perks? That would add a lot of tactical decisions on deciding between caliber, damage, or health perks. And it's bothered me as something ripe for a perk but lacking.

Yeah, I like the idea of Caliber perks. Range perks would also be interesting, but these wouldn't work properly with certain types of attacks -- how do you boost the range of Entropic Touch for example. But yeah, Caliber perks I'm all for.  Not sure what it would replace, though, if replacing is absolutely necessary.

What does the featherweight perk do? Can't quite remember. Some slowfall thing?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 11:56:21 AM by Pepisolo »

Offline x4000

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Re: Does the platforming/combat side need something else?
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2013, 12:03:59 PM »
Featherweight is slowfall, yeah.

In terms of range perks, those would be incredibly overpowered, so those are specifically excluded for that reason.
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