Arcen Games
General Category => A Valley Without Wind 1 & 2 => Topic started by: maaltan on January 05, 2013, 05:05:45 pm
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[ftp]I have played avvw2 for several hours now. mostly in 707, some in 709. I hoped to have a comprehensive post before I'm finished with suggestions. Hopefully I'm not repeating things , but i cant keep up with the storm of traffic in this forum. I appreciate the hard work that has gone into this game and i find it to be a great improvement over AVWW 1. I will be looking forward to the future of AVWW 2.
- Gamepad support is really bad
This is a holdover from AVWW 1. Luckily the same workaround works: joy to key.
switching to a gamepad to keyboard emulation scheme (currently using joy to key) made the game about 1000% more responsive. i can compare the responsiveness to pretty much any current gen platforming game. I was able to customize the dead zone correction on analog stick (which the slider in AVWW never did anything for me) I currently have it set to about 30% which is more than is needed for centering but gave you a nice comfort zone for the digital movement keys.
It would be nice to correct the in game support, but i am guessing this comes from your engine (unity? ) and there is not much you can do about that directly. I suppose you can go with a different input library (although i'm pretty anti-MS in general, the xbinput libraries are the only ones I've seen that seem to do things right. This includes MS directinput and windows built in joystick functionality. Unfortunately, this will probably limit support on any non windows vista or newer computers)
I suppose you could roll your own. You could add a layer between the engine's input API and your command execution code that filter things into into digital input on your terms. You could add configuration options that would be used by that layer to configure the deadzone (the only thing i can really see lacking). Another bonus would be that the key config dialogs would get MUCH simpler as you don't have to expose all that engine stuff anymore.
The new style of gameplay makes me think the gamepad should be targeted as preferred input method. This, in my opinion, should be a pretty high priority.
- one dispatch per turn
From my estimates demonica can destroy up to 3 tiles in a turn(more later), while you can only repair one IF you are in range. Sure you get to explore more and faster later, but i am not seeing the point of rescuing more survivors. the more survivors you have the more resources it takes to maintain, but you have no real benefit for having more than original four. Maybe I've not played long enough yet to "get it". It seems that if you focus on purifying bonus tiles and just use your dispatches for scavenge and rallies you will make out.
Assuming, I'm not missing the point maybe make it so that each survivor can perform one action per turn, but reduce the success rate to something less than 95% (which seems to be the only rate i see)
- no checkpoints
I might just be spoiled by other games here, but a 10 minute walk to a boss that can kill you in 1-2 shots takes all the fun out of it. I see there are some boss room improvements so this might not be a huge issue long term.
- New death mechanic
I don't see the logic in "game was too hard for you so lets make it harder" This seems like it will only be a source of frustration. There needs to be a converse death mechanic or something like killing a henchman, sending survivors on a dispatch mission, or maybe just clear the monster aggression on a level up.
A push/pull mechanic would be cool. It would also act as a dispatch sink if it turns out one dispatch per survivor is too much (if you go that route). When certain events happen (not necessarily saying player death is right event... or the passage of time) the world gets harder. Conversely you can do things that hurt Demonica. Ex: survivors go on a dispatch to annoy Demonica. Either by directly attacking demonica's square (low rate of success high reduction of world difficulty) or blockage of supply lines whatever they might be (moderate chance of success, low rate of reduction of difficulty) EX: (un)tainting Demonica's ley lines maybe? This option could be exposed at the point mana sources are tracked as that is the point of the game that it will become important. )
- Dead ends/impassible terrain
This was really bad in 707. I created a world from 709 and the second perk cave i came to had an impassible 1 block high area near beginning. This is probably bugs in the level generation code and I've seen efforts to correct this so i wont dwell on it. ( as requested: world file attached. issue at coord 1,0 screenshot: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=118394685)
- destructible bonus tiles
This kind of goes with the one dispatch a turn issue. if you are to compete with the increased movement of demonica and ever increasing combat difficulty then the important towers should be indestructible or something. At some point the bonus will be shutdown by the unstoppable force and not be able to recover because you have too much other damage to repair.
Also, in the beginning game, the resource tiles are too grouped together. Inevitably the first turn demonica moves, it will wipe out 3/4 of your housing and the brand new clinic it forces you to build (which seems to be pointless so far to be since it seems my survivors almost always succeed at a task and once in a blue moon are killed right out.)
- Equipment
I vote to have an inventory of equipment you can chose from and significantly increase the durability to something like diablo clone levels. Maybe even make it so a survivor can repair them at a factory as an action. Alternatively, remove cursed items and leave the rest as is (maybe increase the frequency of the chests). Most of the chests I've seen are in really hard to get to places. I basically ignore them now because they will either be cursed or gone by time i hit the next door (even with the 709 durability increases). Alternate 2: remove equipment entirely as it adds nothing to the experience at the moment in my opinion.
- Ammo
of all the classes I've tried you basically get 2-3 shots of your ammo gun per level. the ammo drops from enemies are completely insufficient. It costs ~15 to launch the attack but you only get 1 ammo from a drop. This means that i keep my ammo attack for the boss which defeats the purpose of the ammo drops since all the action is over.
As a fix either give 1d10 ammo per drop, or divide all costs and character pools by 10. Dividing everything by 10 would fit better with the "hearts" hp mechanic. You could have 5 hearts and 3 swords/bullets/magic orbs or something. As far as the name of this resource goes I'm partial to "quintessence" (an underutilized word in fantasy/scifi games in my opinion) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintessence_%28physics%29
edit 1: attached world file
edit 2: screenshot and in depth reflection of each topic
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If you see any impassible areas, please send me a save of that world. They usually need to be corrected on an individual basis.
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attached world file in original post.
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I agree with most everything on the list. Things are in a good spot in my game right now but I could see some of these issues becoming a problem later on.
I think having the equipment adds some occasional humor but you're right, they don't last very long at all at the moment.
If you see any impassible areas, please send me a save of that world. They usually need to be corrected on an individual basis.
I have one as well, I'm just below the location in question. World file attached below.
Edit: tigersfan, in light of the recent changes to the game I think I'll just start a new game. I'll take the fixed world file if you've done it already but if not that's perfectly ok as well.
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712 impressions
the new angle shot controls make this unplayable with a gamepad. if you pushing in any direction except precisely left or right you stop dead in your tracks. (this includes the down angles..) I'm playing on an xbox360 controller. I'm sure people can verify exactly how hard it is to press precisely 100% left or right using either the analog or whatever that thing is they stuck on there they call a dpad. :)
some ideas:
- Keep as is except make it only happen when you are firing. if you are not firing then you can be as wobbly with the stick as you need to and still walk. Also, add downward angle firing using same idea. there are lots of times I need to stand at the top of a downhill section and shoot down but not actually be standed on the slanty part.
- Create a single "lockdown" keybind. This would replace all the angle firing stuff attempted so far. Basically if I'm not pressing that button i can walk jump and shoot in all 8 directions. If i hold it down then the character is immobile while I aim. I could comfortably map this to a shoulder button. For a keyboard, it could be mapped to shift which matches the functionality of most Diablo like games so should be comfortable for most gamers.
I am most partial to the second option myself.
I'm going to mess around with joytokey some to see if I can make things more playable in its current state. if i can ill post more comments later.
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the new angle shot controls make this unplayable with a gamepad. if you pushing in any direction except precisely left or right you stop dead in your tracks. (this includes the down angles..) I'm playing on an xbox360 controller. I'm sure people can verify exactly how hard it is to press precisely 100% left or right using either the analog or whatever that thing is they stuck on there they call a dpad. :)
(http://static2.fjcdn.com/comments/I+feel+you+I+got+new+dogs+and+their+young+_d6efe612fbd220e80b30a14e80c2221a.jpg)
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the new angle shot controls make this unplayable with a gamepad. if you pushing in any direction except precisely left or right you stop dead in your tracks. (this includes the down angles..) I'm playing on an xbox360 controller. I'm sure people can verify exactly how hard it is to press precisely 100% left or right using either the analog or whatever that thing is they stuck on there they call a dpad.
Interesting, I actually have not noticed this problem using the d-pad, although I can certainly imagine that using the analog stick could cause it. Will need to remap my controls to test, I think.
Keep as is except make it only happen when you are firing. if you are not firing then you can be as wobbly with the stick as you need to and still walk.
Should work. I can't see why not.
Create a single "lockdown" keybind. This would replace all the angle firing stuff attempted so far. Basically if I'm not pressing that button i can walk jump and shoot in all 8 directions. If i hold it down then the character is immobile while I aim. I could comfortably map this to a shoulder button.
Yeah, like Contra Hardcorps or Alien Soldier. Would definitely be awesome on the joypad. This was my solution to the 8-way control problem for a long time. I think that the developers have finally trimmed the keyboard controls down to a level that they find acceptable, though, and are probably loathe to add even a single extra button at this stage.
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Yeah, I switched over to the analog stick today to test the system with it and it's clunky feeling. Like when you try to navigate the menus. If you aren't pressing close to exactly up or down on the menus then it feels like the selection is sticking and inputs aren't registering. It's getting the input just fine, it's just on the menus there is very little horizontal selection going on. So in the action sections of the game, if you drift out of the horizontal alignment into the vertical your character stops suddenly. It's pretty jarring and made me switch back immediately to the D-pad. This is on a wired Xbox 360 pad.
People who absolutely hate the D-pad on the 360 gamepad are probably going to have some issues with this.
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Does playing around with the axis sensitively (or whatever it's called, forget the name offhand) help with this issue out of curiosity?
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712 impressions
the new angle shot controls make this unplayable with a gamepad. if you pushing in any direction except precisely left or right you stop dead in your tracks. (this includes the down angles..) I'm playing on an xbox360 controller. I'm sure people can verify exactly how hard it is to press precisely 100% left or right using either the analog or whatever that thing is they stuck on there they call a dpad. :)
I just wanted to make a quick point here: The 360 controller is infamous for having basically the single worst d-pad ever created. No, seriously. It's *that* bad. No, no no.... actually, it's WORSE than that bad.
Did you know it's technically possible to, say, press UP on the thing and have it register as DOWN? Yeah. I wish I was making that up.
I play alot of shmups, the majority of which are, unfortunately, on the 360 for some bloody stupid reason, and that controller.... using it in those is pretty much a futile effort. It *will* just cause you to lose, over and over and over, through no fault of your own.
It's not the game's controls at fault here, I am 100% certain of this, and there's likely to be exactly squat that can be done from that side of things to make the 360 controller work better for this game. I'm using a PS3 controller, and havent even once encountered this issue. That thing's dpad is seriously about as good as they get. If you have one..... consider using it instead. Granted, it's pretty obnoxious to set up so that the blasted PC recognizes it. I use MotionJoy and Joy2Key both together in order to make this work. Havent attached the 360 controller to the PC since getting that to work, and hopefully, I wont have to ever again. That controller really is awful.
I dont understand WHY they got the dpad on that thing so completely WRONG.
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As I mentioned, I already found using the built in gamepad controls unplayable. the built in deadzone/sensitivity does nothing for me and i would always drift left. As a workaround I am using joy to key. With joy to key i found the 708 experience very nice and on par with pretty much any nes/snes era platformer.
I was able to get the PS3 controller to recognize at one time but it kept doing wierd things like disconnecting randomly and getting totally corrupted and streaming random button presses. also deadzone adjustment is just as missing when using the ps3 controller and my ps3 controller has a REALLy bad off center stick.
On the other hand, this is beta testing and since it looks like PC gaming (windows, mac, etc) is moving toward using the xbox controller as the defacto standard ( steam seems to be helping push it along with their "big picutre" and new console box development ) this is probably the controller that should be targeted. crappy dpad and all.
PS: i was unable to map the dpad using the built in support. it is actually a pov hat in windows and there is no option for that. with joy to key i have it mapped for usage in menus. due to the crappy design it is actually harder to push directly left or right. than from the analog stick.
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I was unable to map the dpad using the built in support.
Really, I use an xbox 360 pad (yes the d-pad is a bit sucky) and was able to map it in-game. Make sure you are trying to map it onto the Gamepad/Mouse Axis option and not the Gamepad Key option.
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Yeah, every function of the 360 controller is mappable in Valley 2. Triggers are mapped as an axis and the D-Pad is as Pepi says.
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You people use the D-pad and not the joysticks? Lolwut?
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I can't stand the analog stick for this sort of game. As atrocious as the 360 D-Pad is, it's more accurate than the analog stick.
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well .. i was able to map the dpad so that works at least now. no benefit.
Also, the axis noise cancellation still has no effect. now that the axis/button config boxes are combined i found it really hard to actually set the key i wanted. it kept registering my slightly off center sticks. I ended up having to move the left stick a bit to the right and right stick a bit up and left, wiggle the l and r triggers just a tiny bit THEN it wouldn't automatically assign something when i clicked the field.
Looking at the 713 changelog it looks like they are keeping the no move angle firing mode the same. Can you make it so you are only locked in place if you are firing? I've been playing a bit and I'm doing better at only hitting left and right, but its still a big problem when having to do tight maneuvering
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well .. i was able to map the dpad so that works at least now. no benefit.
Also, the axis noise cancellation still has no effect. now that the axis/button config boxes are combined i found it really hard to actually set the key i wanted. it kept registering my slightly off center sticks. I ended up having to move the left stick a bit to the right and right stick a bit up and left, wiggle the l and r triggers just a tiny bit THEN it wouldn't automatically assign something when i clicked the field.
Looking at the 713 changelog it looks like they are keeping the no move angle firing mode the same. Can you make it so you are only locked in place if you are firing? I've been playing a bit and I'm doing better at only hitting left and right, but its still a big problem when having to do tight maneuvering
This might help if possible.
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Just to check Mouldyk and Maaltan did you guys try changing the Axis Noise Cancelling to .75 for up and down (leave the horizontal at.5). Seemed like a vast improvement to me.
Can you make it so you are only locked in place if you are firing?
Actually, thinking about it, this solution might be pretty good. If even after messing with the Axis Noise Cancelling that doesn't give a satisfactory result, this seems like a decent fix. This might even be the preferred way to implement the fixed diagonal shooting, haven't had enough time to test and think about it yet, though.
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It does make a world of difference, but i'm thinking of others really. Maybe even a toggle, but if it aint changed, I won't be too fussed. :)
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You people use the D-pad and not the joysticks? Lolwut?
Some games simply do not work right if you use the analog sticks.
Hell, I think 99% of the games I am most into are this way. Fighting games (2D, not 3D), and shmups.... you simply DO NOT use the analog for either, not unless you want to die/lose really, REALLY often. And I dont use arcade sticks because they hurt my arm and also just slow me down.
I actually cant remember the last game I played that actually made use of analog sticks.
I was able to get the PS3 controller to recognize at one time but it kept doing wierd things like disconnecting randomly and getting totally corrupted and streaming random button presses. also deadzone adjustment is just as missing when using the ps3 controller and my ps3 controller has a REALLy bad off center stick.
The PS3 controller needs to be set up carefully using a very specific sort of driver and program. Also, it seems to *require*, at all times, both something like Motionjoy, *and* Joy2key running at once, and both have to be set up *correctly*. The 360 controller only works without because the machine instantly recognizes it; Sony did not add plug-n-play to theirs, because Sony.
And the initial setup, if done right, actually takes a bit of time. If NOT done right, you run into all sorts of wacky problems.
It's a hassle, but..... it's *so* worth never, EVER having to use that nightmare that Microsoft calls a controller. I'm well aware that most games only support the 360 controller..... and I laugh at them, because I'll be FORCING them to use the PS3 one instead. The 360 one can go rot in a hole somewhere. And you only have to do that initial setup once..... once you've got the thing going correctly and working the way you want, from that point on, you need only fire up the related programs, and there you go.
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Some games simply do not work right if you use the analog sticks.
Hell, I think 99% of the games I am most into are this way. Fighting games (2D, not 3D), and shmups.... you simply DO NOT use the analog for either, not unless you want to die/lose really, REALLY often. And I dont use arcade sticks because they hurt my arm and also just slow me down.
I actually cant remember the last game I played that actually made use of analog sticks.
Weirdo.
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Misery seems to like a lot of games that require fine control and demand a great deal of precision, so it's not exactly unprecedented to feel that way. It's like, how I play Rock Band Blitz, I NEED a specific controller. Without that controller, my performance in that game is horrendous. Why? Because it's demanding, and the subtle things matter.
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a quick 713 report:
- Difficulty has gone way way way up .. at adept difficulty and 55% world difficulty things are doing about .5 to 2 hearts per hit. Life drops have been reduced to between .1 and .5 per. bosses are really really hard now as well. they seem to have 10-50x more hp or something. Also spell caliber seems to have been nerfed significantly. i tried 3 of the 5 classes and none of the attacks penetrate anything.
- found another impassible area at -1, -2 (file attached) http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=119727246
- Mr. wounded seems to always die now at turn two since there is no way to have a clinic in place before turn one ends.
- the downward angle shots seem to be just as hard to get to work as the upper angle shots are to accidentally use. This kind of clues me into something... It seems you might have a calculation error on what is "origin" of the stick is somehow . This also might also be the reason why I have so much trouble getting the thing centered. When I calibrate my controller through windows my "center" is actually up and to the left significantly of the raw input's center. It seems AVWW is using an absolute center (ie mathematical center of the raw input min/maxes.) rather than the midpoint of the ranges the stick is capable of). I've downloaded unity 3.5.7 (is this the correct version?) ... i think I'm going to play with this some...
edit: this is interesting: http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/58016-Joystick-calibration?p=372111&viewfull=1#post372111
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http://steamcommunity.com/app/228320/discussions/0/864956554756404309/
^--- First Steam comment about the pad-controls.
Gamepad Glitchy
I'm using a standard xbox 360 gamepad and my controls have been so flaky in this game, that I initially thought there was something wrong with controller. However, I went back and tested it with other games, and it is not a problem with my controller. Whenever I use the analog stick, control just doesn't feel "tight". Often, my guy won't start moving in the direction I hold right away, or else he'll continue moving in a direction after I stop holding in that direction. What the heck?
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hmm annoying .. browser crashed and lost post ...the summarized version
the dead property in the input manager in unity appears to be broken (at least on my machine with the xbox 360 controller).
http://answers.unity3d.com/questions/129838/joystick-movement.html
you will need to roll your own deadzone code for gamepads to work properly. there is a good example in that post.
attached is an example project that shows the issue. dead is set to .999 yet the numbers still show a full range of floating point values (first in text box is horizontal, second is vertical
edit 1: continue posting and hope no more crashes....
the deadzone setting will need to be outside the key binding pages. This is because if the deadzone is too low, then you cannot map things easily/at all(see one of my posts above for details). As i said before, 30% seems to work well (ex if( ax < 0.3f && ax > -0.3f)) and should serve as a good starting point. It would be nice to have separate deadzones for each direction of at least the left thumbstick.
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because Sony.
Yeah.. just caught that statement....all i can say is yeah..... I've not knowingly given them money since the other os crap. It would have been after the rootkit crap if i actually listened to that kind of music. <angry old man fist shaking>
But lI digress' lets take this rant elsewhere and stay on target :-)
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This topis seems good to ask this question: what is your source of character names in this game? My hero is Bonifacy Biesiada and I chosen him for this amusing name.