Author Topic: An Update On The "A Valley Without Wind" Art Rework Project  (Read 21908 times)

Offline Nalgas

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Re: An Update On The "A Valley Without Wind" Art Rework Project
« Reply #75 on: August 17, 2012, 05:36:31 AM »
O_o

Using a controller to play typical mouse-driven games sounds like trying to run the marathon without legs. Why cripple yourself?

In their case, I don't know, but I can think of reasons, like being "crippled" in some way to begin with.  I hurt my wrists at the beginning of the year, and as a result I pretty much haven't played any games at all since February (which is why I disappeared off the forums and why the most recent version of AVWW I've played is 0.4xx).  I'm about at the point where I'd be ok using a controller for some stuff though.  The mouse is the worst part, and I could see that being a not-completely-intolerable way around it if it were the only option.  I've learned to use mousekeys fairly naturally for some things in the past six months, despite how terrible the keypad is as a pointing device.  Heh.

Offline Misery

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Re: An Update On The "A Valley Without Wind" Art Rework Project
« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2012, 05:41:59 AM »
O_o

Using a controller to play typical mouse-driven games sounds like trying to run the marathon without legs. Why cripple yourself?

Lack of a choice.

Too much mouse use, due to the arm position and movements required (and for whatever reason, the clicking) causes my arm to flare up.  If you were to get up, bash your elbow into a wall 50 times, and then attempt to tackle the wall a few times with that shoulder, yeah, it feels kinda like that.   And it lasts for awhile.   It's actually a back/neck issue, but it manifests in various semi-random ways.  I go to physical therapy for this, which helps.... it's WAY better than it was one year ago.  But for now, I can still not do too much in the way of gaming with the mouse.  I can do some slow-moving games.... but not many.   I have various pain meds for this, but they wont stop it from flaring up.

This has also had the side-effect of getting me really used to using the controller for everything.  Minecraft is the main one that gets played the most, and I use the controller for literally everything (including stuff like inventory and menu, AKA, moving the mouse with the analogs).  The one, and only, game that I cannot use the controller for is Starcraft 2, so that's the only one that cant be played.   Even Diablo 3 is played like this (and I'm not going to try to describe just what I had to do to make THAT work).   In most cases I'm actually better off this way, as I've always been astonishingly terrible with computer mice.  Very, very inaccurate.  I make up for this with extreme accuracy with a controller though (or pure keyboard, for some games).  When I HAVE tried to play something like Minecraft with the usual keyboard/mouse, all that happens is I misclick alot of things, fall offa stuff all the time, and cant hit a damn thing with that stupid bow.


As for THIS game.... I honestly cant imagine playing it with the keyboard/mouse.   I just immediately associate platformers with controllers as it is, and mouse aim would....  well, let's just say I wouldnt hit targets very often, hah. 

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: An Update On The "A Valley Without Wind" Art Rework Project
« Reply #77 on: August 17, 2012, 05:58:29 AM »
O_o

Using a controller to play typical mouse-driven games sounds like trying to run the marathon without legs. Why cripple yourself?

Lack of a choice.

Too much mouse use, due to the arm position and movements required (and for whatever reason, the clicking) causes my arm to flare up.  If you were to get up, bash your elbow into a wall 50 times, and then attempt to tackle the wall a few times with that shoulder, yeah, it feels kinda like that.   And it lasts for awhile.   It's actually a back/neck issue, but it manifests in various semi-random ways.  I go to physical therapy for this, which helps.... it's WAY better than it was one year ago.  But for now, I can still not do too much in the way of gaming with the mouse.  I can do some slow-moving games.... but not many.   I have various pain meds for this, but they wont stop it from flaring up.

This has also had the side-effect of getting me really used to using the controller for everything.  Minecraft is the main one that gets played the most, and I use the controller for literally everything (including stuff like inventory and menu, AKA, moving the mouse with the analogs).  The one, and only, game that I cannot use the controller for is Starcraft 2, so that's the only one that cant be played.   Even Diablo 3 is played like this (and I'm not going to try to describe just what I had to do to make THAT work).   In most cases I'm actually better off this way, as I've always been astonishingly terrible with computer mice.  Very, very inaccurate.  I make up for this with extreme accuracy with a controller though (or pure keyboard, for some games).  When I HAVE tried to play something like Minecraft with the usual keyboard/mouse, all that happens is I misclick alot of things, fall offa stuff all the time, and cant hit a damn thing with that stupid bow.


As for THIS game.... I honestly cant imagine playing it with the keyboard/mouse.   I just immediately associate platformers with controllers as it is, and mouse aim would....  well, let's just say I wouldnt hit targets very often, hah. 
This game, absolutely. It's a typical platformer so I can understand that. However, the inventory management probably gets annoying.

As for that arm issues. Been there, done that :( It sucks. I program for studies, game for a hobby, and work by a computer at work. My arm gave up about a year ago and I hurt like no tomorrow. Physical therapy, change to ergonomic desk and mouse at work all helped get me back on track. I still feel stiff from time to time, but it's waaay better now.
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Offline Penumbra

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Re: An Update On The "A Valley Without Wind" Art Rework Project
« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2012, 12:51:00 PM »
This has also had the side-effect of getting me really used to using the controller for everything. 

If (as it appears) you are having no problems using your thumbs, might I suggest a wireless trackball?  They do everything a mouse can do, and you can place it anywhere (and at any angle) you want.

Not much more movement required for your thumb than an analogue stick without all that pesky elbow/shoulder movement.

Personally, I find trackballs to be far superior to mice ;) No need to ever pick the stupid thing up to keep moving in one direction, clicking doesn't have any effect on your position, the "working in any position" thing, taking up less desk space ... I could go on :)

Now, if only they made a real gaming one somewhere..... :(

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: An Update On The "A Valley Without Wind" Art Rework Project
« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2012, 05:02:59 PM »
if you "pick" a mouse ever up there is already your reason for RSI - control your mouse with your fingers, and don't move your arm or wrist at all. Super gliding mouse pad, very high sensitivity and some getting used to, but aside that, it will prevent RSI, as long as you got a good wrist pad for your mouse pad (I use the combo from Razor, they make terrible mice, but they make great extremely smooth gliding mouse pads and wrist pads).

Trackballs are not comparable to a real pointing device in performance unless you go the full length and buy one where you can not just adjust sensitivity and size of the ball but also the resistance of it's rotation to nearly 0... in the end, only a correctly set height, chair, screen height etc will ever save you from problems in the back... If you got already problems pause, and fix your work place.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: An Update On The "A Valley Without Wind" Art Rework Project
« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2012, 05:10:19 PM »
Controlling your mouse only with your fingers WILL give you RSI. That's what I have always been doing, and one of my muscles in my underarm seized up completely. The one controlling the fingers and the tilt of the hand.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: An Update On The "A Valley Without Wind" Art Rework Project
« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2012, 06:32:52 PM »
Mhh, thats Interesting.. maybe it's counter balanced by my hobby? Table tennis... my arm issues only start when the height isn't right..

But this is pretty Interesting. I always thought the less you move your *arm* for mouse control the better. (and stable near 90° angle for your arm->fore arm) and whatever I do it works. I once used an bad height table and got that muscle issue nearly instantly. Once i replaced the table, the issue is gone. And I use a PC hardcore, I work on it and game on it. Anyway, this is one of these things were I just hope the human body somehow adapts ;p
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: An Update On The "A Valley Without Wind" Art Rework Project
« Reply #82 on: August 17, 2012, 06:46:52 PM »
Anyway, this is one of these things were I just hope the human body somehow adapts ;p
Haha, yea.  Of all the various cyberpunk and other quasi-transhumanist settings I've seen, "massively reinforced arm musculature, tendons, and nervous infrastructure for the purpose of avoiding computer-related RSI" has not been a thing, despite computer use generally being even more prevalent (if not a sine-qua-non of human life) in those settings.

Probably because more "direct" interfaces typically are a thing there...

So, er, yea, the AVWW Art Rework Project, that was somehow the topic of this comment :)
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: An Update On The "A Valley Without Wind" Art Rework Project
« Reply #83 on: August 17, 2012, 09:30:37 PM »
You would be surprised, most issues humans have because of technology are exactly BECAUSE the human body adapts (wrongly) to a situation he hasn't need adaption before. There is however no proof that there can't be positive adaptions. They are simply never brought to attention to a doctor, why would you go to a doctor when you have no health issues, after all.

Can't wait for teh art-rework ;p
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Offline Nalgas

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Re: An Update On The "A Valley Without Wind" Art Rework Project
« Reply #84 on: August 17, 2012, 10:39:00 PM »
my arm issues only start when the height isn't right..

Speaking as someone who's played the piano for nearly 30 years, that is indeed generally the quickest and best way to cause problems, because then your wrist is out of alignment (or both of them are if your keyboard is poorly positioned too).  Having to move too far to do things can cause problems, and so can having too much resistance between the mouse and the surface it's on, but having sensitivity too high can also cause problems for a lot of people because they end up gripping the mouse much harder than necessary and tensing up their arm muscles just trying to keep it under control.  Keeping your wrist straight and not relying on bending it to move is generally a good idea, but that doesn't mean you're stuck with only your fingers.  The higher up your arm your movement starts from, the smaller the movement needs to be and with less force behind it.

The teacher I spent the most time with came from the conservatory in St. Petersburg, and he was very serious about forcing me to learn to play with proper posture and technique.  The time I spent focusing on things like that may have been boring at first, but I learned to appreciate it afterward because this is the first time I've ever had problems with anything anywhere from my shoulders down to my wrists, and I'm a programmer for both work and fun, spend 20 hours a week playing video games, and play two instruments.

<insert comment about new art>

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: An Update On The "A Valley Without Wind" Art Rework Project
« Reply #85 on: August 18, 2012, 02:21:12 AM »
To be honest, I think "proper posture in front of a PC" should be mandatory knowledge taught in schools. But even with proper posture (which is really relative ,p) sitting 18 hours in front of a PC will make you feel tense and have some straining no matter what. Think it's equally important you sleep right so that at least some part of the day you are NOT tense. Man, there are so many variables to consider when it comes to these issues it scares me that there is so little of this knowledge actually taught. If you don't much care for the topic, you could be sleeping 20 years on a completely bad bed-setup and you would have ruined yourself in the process, unknowingly. Anyway, that's that... ;p

<insert reply to comment about new art>
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Offline Nalgas

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Re: An Update On The "A Valley Without Wind" Art Rework Project
« Reply #86 on: August 18, 2012, 05:11:50 AM »
Mmm, sleeping.  I could go on about that for a while too, but I think it's plenty at this point to agree that it's important.  I'm epileptic, so making sure nothing physically or mentally interferes with sleeping properly is probably the most important thing I do every day.  Heh.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: An Update On The "A Valley Without Wind" Art Rework Project
« Reply #87 on: August 18, 2012, 11:03:41 AM »
To be honest, I think "proper posture in front of a PC" should be mandatory knowledge taught in schools. But even with proper posture (which is really relative ,p) sitting 18 hours in front of a PC will make you feel tense and have some straining no matter what. Think it's equally important you sleep right so that at least some part of the day you are NOT tense. Man, there are so many variables to consider when it comes to these issues it scares me that there is so little of this knowledge actually taught. If you don't much care for the topic, you could be sleeping 20 years on a completely bad bed-setup and you would have ruined yourself in the process, unknowingly. Anyway, that's that... ;p

<insert reply to comment about new art>

This reminds me of some video games actually. There is little documentation, the in-game tutorial teaches you nothing about how the game is actually played. All you can do is hope new players go online to read up about the real metagame before they make irreversible mistakes... I guess like Diablo 2?

Offline doctorfrog

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Re: An Update On The "A Valley Without Wind" Art Rework Project
« Reply #88 on: August 18, 2012, 01:13:45 PM »
To be honest, I think "proper posture in front of a PC" should be mandatory knowledge taught in schools. But even with proper posture (which is really relative ,p) sitting 18 hours in front of a PC will make you feel tense and have some straining no matter what. Think it's equally important you sleep right so that at least some part of the day you are NOT tense. Man, there are so many variables to consider when it comes to these issues it scares me that there is so little of this knowledge actually taught. If you don't much care for the topic, you could be sleeping 20 years on a completely bad bed-setup and you would have ruined yourself in the process, unknowingly. Anyway, that's that... ;p

<insert reply to comment about new art>

... and here's why we should have a clock present in AI War and possibly AVWW as well: http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=2505