Author Topic: Achievements in AVWW?  (Read 6898 times)

Offline @B0FH

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Achievements in AVWW?
« on: February 27, 2011, 04:42:57 AM »
Although I don't expect to see them in the alpha, I'm struggling to see how achievements could be  implimented in this title.

Some are easy/obvious - walk 500 miles (and then walk 500 more  :D ), locate x number of rare tiles, craft x items, etc etc.  But the possible problems I foresee are what happens when you join someone elses world?  That would (surely) negate  any "reach x level" style achievements, with them being global to the server, rather than per character?

Although many people don't see the point in achievements, they certainly add a little extra to a game, and it would be a shame for AVWW to be the first Arcen title without them ;)

On a slightly related note, I hope to see the game reach all the distribution platforms the other titles do now (And as such Steam-ify the achievements if they do make it into the gold build? :p)

Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Achievements in AVWW?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2011, 06:06:06 AM »
Achivements does nothing to me for a game, but i just watched the latest extracredits episoden on achivements, and he had some good points on how achivements can be made interesting. Basically giving you an achivement reward for playing the game differently, not just grinding more etc ;)

I see some games having achivements for just starting the game almost. I feel insulted by that ;p
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Offline x4000

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Re: Achievements in AVWW?
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2011, 09:06:55 AM »
We'll have achievements, and I'm sure they will be integrTed into steam as normal assuming they carry he game (no reason to think they would not). Also as you mention, most likely these would not be in place until late beta. And indeed, mostly these would be for specific discoveries or other side objectives that the player would has to be present for to count.
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Offline snrub_guy

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Re: Achievements in AVWW?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2011, 09:47:34 AM »
Achivements does nothing to me for a game, but i just watched the latest extracredits episoden on achivements, and he had some good points on how achivements can be made interesting. Basically giving you an achivement reward for playing the game differently, not just grinding more etc ;)

I see some games having achivements for just starting the game almost. I feel insulted by that ;p

I watched that as well. Those guys are awesome. They do have some interesting thoughts on the way achievements should be used. Not just for doing something you would do anyway, or for finding 300 collectibles, but for introducing you to ways of playing the game that aren't the main focus, but are still entertaining (like passifism run-throughs, or some of valve's more imaginative ones).

Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Achievements in AVWW?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2011, 11:53:54 AM »
Achivements does nothing to me for a game, but i just watched the latest extracredits episoden on achivements, and he had some good points on how achivements can be made interesting. Basically giving you an achivement reward for playing the game differently, not just grinding more etc ;)

I see some games having achivements for just starting the game almost. I feel insulted by that ;p

I watched that as well. Those guys are awesome. They do have some interesting thoughts on the way achievements should be used. Not just for doing something you would do anyway, or for finding 300 collectibles, but for introducing you to ways of playing the game that aren't the main focus, but are still entertaining (like passifism run-throughs, or some of valve's more imaginative ones).

Exactly. A few odd funny ones are OK in my book too, but I recently played magicka, and got one for basically just moving around or casting a basic spell. Makes them feel a bit cheap and redundant. ^^
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: Achievements in AVWW?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2011, 11:58:48 AM »
Well some of those in Magicka are going to be joke achievements, because that game is tongue-in-cheek all the way through. I like good achievements though. If I like a game pretty well they give me a good excuse to go back and toy around with it more. You've got to have some kind of goal to keep playing a game, otherwise you're just doing the same thing over and over for no good reason. Sounds like AVWW is going to have plenty of things to keep you playing for a while goal-wise, so any achievements will just be additional side-fun things.

Offline HitmanN

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Re: Achievements in AVWW?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2011, 12:16:20 PM »
You've got to have some kind of goal to keep playing a game, otherwise you're just doing the same thing over and over for no good reason.

While I somewhat like achievements and even sometimes play games just for them, I think that the above statement is false.

You don't need goals to have a good time playing a game. And having good time with a game is a good reason to play it.

Offline x4000

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Re: Achievements in AVWW?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2011, 12:19:36 PM »
In Tidalis, we specifically did a lot with collectibles and achievements to be tongue-in-cheek, because personally I'm not usually a fan of either.  But, I think that for ones that have purpose and depth, like the way it's handled even in something like Tiny Birds, can be quite engaging.  With AI War, we used achievements partly as a way to keep track of which AIs you'd previously beat, which was useful.
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Offline HitmanN

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Re: Achievements in AVWW?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2011, 12:25:06 PM »
With AI War, we used achievements partly as a way to keep track of which AIs you'd previously beat, which was useful.

That was about the only thing I did with the achievements in AI War, actually. ;P

Offline x4000

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Re: Achievements in AVWW?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2011, 12:29:01 PM »
Yeah, same.  Most of the other achievements were added in there "because people like achievements," and I'd been asked to put them in so dang many times.  Version 1.0 of the game did not have achievements, as I don't particularly like them.  But 2.0 did, partly because of players wanting them and partly because of Steam.  I've since realized that there are more interesting things that we can do with them, but in terms of AI War they are really terrific for keeping track of AI and minor faction conquests at the very least.
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Achievements in AVWW?
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2011, 01:49:31 PM »
I like Plants VS Zombies Achievements, they make you choose different plants to fight the zombies and really challenge you to play differently.  Been replaying the game on my iPhone to get them all since I didn't get them on my Steam version.  AIW I sorta watch the achievements, but don't care too much about them.  Tidalis I all but ignored them :P, was more fun just exploring the game :).  

I go back and forth on Achievements.  Some games have really well done achievements and worth pursuing, but others are just ridiculously hard or dumb ones.  It all depends on the game and how much I like them.  However, they are rarely a selling point to me.  Your not going to sell me a game if your greatest feature is "all of these great achievements!".  Also, I've seen game achievements where you need to buy DLC x5 for your friends.  Thank goodness I never bought that game...Fable 2.... 

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« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 01:52:18 PM by kingisaaclinksr »
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: Achievements in AVWW?
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2011, 04:42:24 PM »
You've got to have some kind of goal to keep playing a game, otherwise you're just doing the same thing over and over for no good reason.

While I somewhat like achievements and even sometimes play games just for them, I think that the above statement is false.

You don't need goals to have a good time playing a game. And having good time with a game is a good reason to play it.

On my phone so I can't type out a reasonable counter argument at the moment. But could you provide an example of a game you have fun in while pursuing no goals at all? And don't say Minecraft unless you've never explored or built any structures, since those are goals after all.

Offline Zhaine

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Re: Achievements in AVWW?
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2011, 05:43:21 PM »
Sure, but I think one of you is talking about goals set by the game developer and the other about goals set by the player. You definitely need one or the other, and most games have room for both.

In CoD (single player) you're almost exclusively working with developer set goals, whereas in Minecraft you're almost exclusively making up your own goals. For me (and this is just a matter of taste) I like games where there are broad, overarching developer set goals, but a vast amount of freedom in how to achieve them and what your immediate sub-goals are is given to the player. Hence I love AI War, Civ, Deus Ex, Bethesda's games the Total War games and the concept of AVWW. But conversely CoD and Minecraft appeal to me very little, being too far at either end a scale that I like to be somewhere in the middle of. . .

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: Achievements in AVWW?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2011, 06:08:11 PM »
Yeah, I go back and forth on Minecraft. Open-ended infinite world is fine, but you really do have to set yourself a goal to make it fun. When I decided I was going to build a nether portal, for example, I had a good few hours of fun getting down to bedrock and finding diamonds for a pick and then a lava pool and a bucket of water to make obsidian blocks to mine out and so on. But then once I had it all built and decorated around it with trees and such to make it look suitably spooky and nether-like, I was again suddenly bored. That's why I'm saying that with no goals, you have no game.

At the most basic level, in order to have a game you have to have a goal to reach and you have to have something opposing you in reaching that goal. Everything from chess to lacrosse to TF2 follows this basic pattern. I win if I do X, and the other person or the developer-placed obstacles try and stop me. That's a game. You may be setting your own goals, or you may be following side goals like achievements. But you can't just set out to say 'I'm not going to attempt to do anything' and then get a game out of it. You win already, game over!

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Achievements in AVWW?
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2011, 07:18:09 PM »
Yeah, I go back and forth on Minecraft. Open-ended infinite world is fine, but you really do have to set yourself a goal to make it fun. When I decided I was going to build a nether portal, for example, I had a good few hours of fun getting down to bedrock and finding diamonds for a pick and then a lava pool and a bucket of water to make obsidian blocks to mine out and so on. But then once I had it all built and decorated around it with trees and such to make it look suitably spooky and nether-like, I was again suddenly bored. That's why I'm saying that with no goals, you have no game.

At the most basic level, in order to have a game you have to have a goal to reach and you have to have something opposing you in reaching that goal. Everything from chess to lacrosse to TF2 follows this basic pattern. I win if I do X, and the other person or the developer-placed obstacles try and stop me. That's a game. You may be setting your own goals, or you may be following side goals like achievements. But you can't just set out to say 'I'm not going to attempt to do anything' and then get a game out of it. You win already, game over!

You have a point, if we had no goals in many of these games, the only games that would work are rail-type games and even that's cheating since your trying to get to the end.  MMOs are also a big you-must-have-a-goal or you lose interest very, very, very fast. 

Achievements are a way of the developers giving us goals to try for. 

King
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