Author Topic: A Valley Without Wind 2 - a full sequel free for existing customers - is coming.  (Read 88475 times)

Offline zebramatt

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The fact that you have to move fingers to press the button is precisely the reason I suggested if the feature were to be included, the keyboard equivalent should be a toggle!

Offline chemical_art

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The fact that you have to move fingers to press the button is precisely the reason I suggested if the feature were to be included, the keyboard equivalent should be a toggle!

And as I said, you'd only want to activate or deactivate the toggle in combat, so in practice you are still moving your finger to activate the toggle while fighting.

I'm confused as to what this toggle is I guess...
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Offline zebramatt

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Did you ever play Super Metroid?

Let's say you walk into a room and there's a platform up and to your right, and a lake of lava down and to your right. Without enemies, you just hold right, hit jump and you're gravy. But let's say there's a crawler on the platform, making his way ever round the platform. You could time your jump just so and then blast him in the noggin, job done. Then again, maybe he's one of those tough crawlers who's going to take a couple of shots. What are your options? Jump and fire - timing's crucial there. Jump to the platform and try to get two shots in before he gets to you (or fail and get knocked into the lava)? Run right whilst holding up to aim up-right and quickly get a shot in, stop before you hit the lava pool, then walk back the other way and repeat - all the while timing it just right in order to actually hit him?

All that sounds like rather a lot of effort for one measly armored crawler. What if there was a way to toggle aim up-right, then slowly walk right until you can hit him? That turns an annoying nuance of the controls into a nice intuitive mechanism. Well done Super Metroid for that, I say!

Offline chemical_art

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There are several reasons why I resist the idea of this toggle so much.
 
The big ideas for those who tl;dr is this:
-This toggle is not intuitive nor  comfortable for the keyboard
-It defeats the vast point most of the point of removing the mouse
-Just because other games have it doesn't mean this one does
 
Lets start with being comfortable with the mouse:
 
Someone suggested using either tab or q for top left and e or r for top right. Let's do a group exercise:
-Put your fingers to cover the five potential directions, since in combat you need to move at all 5 rapidly with such intense fighting. put your fingers on tab, a, w, d, and r.
-How does this feel? If your fingers don't cramp inside, they feel cramped rubbing against each other. The hand position is not comfortable, your fingers feel crowded, and in general you couldn't play long before it becomes painful. This simply doesn't work.
-It doesn't work because of how our fingers are made. The pinky and thumb feel most comfortable when they are below the three inner fingers
 
Let us try another exercise. We put our three fingers on  left shift, a, w , d, and space.
-This is about the most comfortable setup I can come up with for the left hand. left shift would be upper left and space would upper right. This is a setup I could work with to allow me to have the 5 directions on my left hand without completely killing my hand.
 
However, there are several problems.
 
-The buttons being lower then the wad is counter intuitive, but easily forgotten enough. -The bigger problems is this takes away the valuable spacebar which is needed if the right hand in combat is used to pick spells 1 - 4 through jkl;. Another button can be used for sure, but the action for attacking is best suited for the best space which is the spacebar.
 
A third option is to use the number pad for the various directions. This is both comfortable and intuitive, but does not allow the character to both run left and aim upper left then veer right easily for you have to move fingers. In addition, I worry the pain this would cause on some laptops whose number pad is not so spacious.
 
So with these three alternatives, we cannot find the trifecta of being comfortable, intuitive, and able to not cramp out the other hand for everyone.
 
But it's intuitive on a controller you say? That games have this feature, so it should happen? That leads to my next point.
 
 
 
I remember the reason the mouse was cut off was to avoid the disparity between mouse and keyboard. It was impossible to balance the two.
 
Having the toggles would put the controller on an very great advantage to the keyboard. The controller can do everything while the keyboard cannot. You can enable the toggle, run, zig and zag, and be very comfortable while doing so.
 
However, of the player base, there is about 2 to 10% of the player base with controllers of some sort.
 
So to cut off the mouse, which about 75% of the player base has access to, but to leave the controller with an immense edge of another axis for the less then 10% defeats the whole point of removing the mouse.
 
Either the keyboard players are gimped in pain or in dexterity while the controller is fine while aerial enemies attack and are balanced with the toggle, or the aerial enemies are defeated without hairpulling by the keyboard players fighting controls but the controller players laugh at the ease.
 
If arcen is going to let the less then 10% of the players have an edge, just keep the mouse and let 75% at least have the edge. If you are able and willing to plug in a controller, you most certainly can plug in a mouse.
 
Other games have the toggle you say and they are necessary? Well, the games are made for it.
 
Even Metroid has gone without the toggle. I played the gameboy version of it from start to finish. Since the game was not designed to shoot diagonally, the bosses and enemies are not expecting you to act that way. There were a few situations were it would have helped, but in the process it would have made 75% of the bosses laughably easy as opposed to being a challenge. Saying super metroid would be hard without the toggle would be like Castlevania SOTN of the night being hard without the slide and double jump. Of course its hard, because the game is designed for the player to use those features!
 
To compare something closer to apples to apples, I bring up Metal Slug again. The game was designed so you can't shoot sidewides and stand still. Many bosses would be pitifully easy if you could. The same for the gameboy metroid, enemies were designed so you can't stand and shoot diagonally otherwise it would be easy.
 
Also take into account this: These games are not made for a keyboard. They use a controller of a sort.
 
If you want to imagine how annoying the toggle is, I invite everyone to try to emulate super metroid on your computer and play with just a keyboard. I can even upload a zip so you can. If you try it, you will see just how badly you are gimped playing the game on a keyboard compared to a controller. This would be fine if you had the attitude that the game was made for the controller, but the whole point losing the mouse on AVWW 2 was to make the game playable on the keyboard!
 
To recap:
-The hand that uses wad cannot easily accommodate extra axis in a comfortable, intuitive way.
-Taking away the mouse but leaving diagonals would go from a majority of players having full freedom of movement to a small minority of controller players
-Enemies can either be balanced around diagonals or no diagonals, but not both.
---Resulting in a net increase of players either fighting enemies not suited for their controls or the player fighting the controls themselves; both of which fly in the face of the goals of AVWW 2 in the interests of streamlining the game, of making the keyboard fully accessible for everyone instead of fully accessible to the majority have access to a mouse, and of avoiding frustrating in the controls hindering free movement.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 04:20:56 pm by chemical_art »
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Offline zebramatt

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To clarify: the Super Metroid controls to which Chris referred specifically don't use toggles - you have to hold the buttons.

I was simply adding to that notion that holding a button was indeed a great design choice in Super Metroid, but if the controls were to translate to a keyboard a toggle equivalent would be necessary.

Given that Chris only mentioned it in passing, I'm not sure he'll be expecting such a detailed rebuttal of it - but I'm sure he'll appreciate the considered view!

I absolutely agree with you, however, that it pivots on whether the level and enemy design is built with the feature in mind.

Offline Oralordos

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Are you going to mark the current AVWW version as an official version? I know a couple people who don't update to the latest beta versions, but if the current version is pretty much stable and isn't really going to be worked on anymore....

Offline Giegue

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I hope not. they haven't changed the fairies to be less common.

Offline Mánagarmr

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I'm pretty sure that AVWW isn't completely abandoned. It'll still recieve bugfixes and touches when there's time. It just won't be a focus.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Panopticon

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I have no idea what tools are available to the public for modding AVWW, but I think the best possibility for its continued life is to open the door to modders as wide as possible. Release the entire suite of tools and the source code.

I'd love to see what could happen with the game at that point.

Offline icepick37

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I don't know why people ask for source code...  Game isn't dead yet, and neither is the code base. They need to hold onto if for security alone. Modding could be interesting, but since they aren't focusing on the original anymore I don't really see it happening.

Offline tigersfan

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Yeah, I don't see us releasing the source code. Especially since we're using more of it than you might think for AVWW2. Modding might be a possibility at some point, but, it's not too likely, and if it does happen, it won't be any time soon. We've got a lot going on around here right now. :)

Offline Panopticon

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And those are perfectly valid reasons for not doing it. I was more musing out loud and thinking about stuff like The Freespace Open community.

I'm in no way discontent with AVWW or your plans for the sequel.

Offline Oralordos

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I am also very content with AVWW1. I am just wondering if there will be an official soon/ever for those people who don't do the beta updates.

Offline tigersfan

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I am also very content with AVWW1. I am just wondering if there will be an official soon/ever for those people who don't do the beta updates.

My guess would be yes, eventually. But, I've not actually discussed that with Chris.

Offline Tobias

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I'm probably gonna miss the mouse aiming and sandbox, but honestly even I really didn't love AVWW1 as much as I wanted to.

This new game looks a lot better, making moves on the whole strategy/supermetroid idea. It's a pretty badass idea and you're totally right about how the original game felt a bit washed out due to trying to combine too much stuff.

Now I'll be able to get the sandbox game I really wanted from AVWW in the form of Starbound which is also coming out towards the end of the year, while also enjoying this much more focused and unique take on AVWW. Win/win.