Author Topic: A Valley Without Wind 2 - a full sequel free for existing customers - is coming.  (Read 88436 times)

Offline Coppermantis

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,212
  • Avenger? I hardly know 'er!
I think that the terrain makes the boss encounter fun or not, at least with AVWW. Skelebots in particular are usually fairly boring encounters because a) their tallness means they get stuck often and b) their attacks are too slow and boring. I'll use Balrog as a comparison point as he's a good example of a fun boss fight in his various incarnations: The rooms in which he is fought tend to be small and basic--I belive that you mentioned smaller Boss rooms in the OP. Good stuff. However, he also moves quickly and dynamically--in contrast to Valley's bosses (except for Amobeas) which move pretty slowly back and forth across the ground. In CS boss fights wherein the boss has a ranged weapon (Labrynth Balrog, Ballos, Misery, The Doctor, The Core, Omega, etc.) it fires quickly and usually with a great many projectiles at once. This rewards skillful maneuvering and makes the combat overall more intersting, which is why I think that the Amobeas are Valley's best bosses since they have these elements. LaughingThesaurus also has a point that a greater variety of attacks makes a more interesting fight. Plus the multi-stage nature of most bosses which gain more attacks as you do more damage. This was also mentioned in the OP which is a good thing.

Let's return to the rooms themselves: A lot of AVWW Boss rooms are quite large and intricate, which leads to wasted space. Cave Story Boss rooms are only as large as they need to be--Most rooms are small and the only large ones are made to fit equally large Bosses (e.g Ballos or The Core.) Additionally, any given room could potentially hold any boss, of which AVWW has quite a few, so a lot of times certain bosses suffered greatly in some rooms. For instance, my "Eye of the Storm" map was great for amoebas since it had a lot of interesting use of Airspace, but the Skelebots were less interesting since they could only use the bottom layer.

The random element is very nice, since it adds variety, but as I said it does make it very difficult to balance a large variety of enemies. I'll use Terraria as the example for this point, as it's randomly generated nature is more akin to AVWW: In Terraria, the Bosses ignore terrain. They can freely pass through ground and walls, focusing on the player. This means that any boss will work just as well in any terrain, plus it adds a lot more angles of attack to keep the player on their toes. Coupled with the previously mentioned faster speed and multiple attacks/stages provides an exciting boss fight.

One more point: In Cave Story, a lot of bosses do not do contact harm (e.g Balrog, Ballos, Monster X) except for slam attacks and so on. With larger bosses like Skelebots this helps, as it allows the player more freedom to maneuver and even take advantage of it (there is a particularly effective strategy for taking down Balrog by landing on top of him and spamming Fireball). With smaller bosses this isn't a problem, but it might help out with larger bosses.


In summary:

-Faster Speed makes things more interesting
-Greater variety of attacks, plus more shots per salvo rewards maneuvering skill
-Bosses can be made or broken by the terrain, so it might be worth considering having larger bosses be able to pass through walls and such (this also prevents larger bosses becoming stuck, as well as making any boss work just as well in any map)
-Larger Enemies not doing contact damage can add some interesting elements (already in AVWW with Urban Crawlers, of course it would depend on the enemy. Some would make sense to have a melee attack)

These are of course just my opinions.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 05:25:44 pm by Coppermantis »
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline Brise Bonbons

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 33
I've been away for a while, and come back to this "wee" tidbit of news. Oh man, this is a lot to take in!

At a glance, it looks like whether this succeeds or not depends mostly on implementation and details - conceptually it sounds elegant, rich, and robust, but extremely dependent on refined mechanics and good balance. As such, I don't even feel like I can offer much feedback until I get my grubby paws on it.

What I can say is, A) I am extremely excited for this new direction; B) The art is looking quite nice so far; C) I think the choice to branch out development to preserve AVWW1 as a sandbox experience is perfect; D) I think this seems like the best direction for Arcen and you personally.

To expand on point D: I have immense faith that this is the sort of game you folks can really nail, given how good you are at creating interesting strategic choices within a procedural game. That is what I'm most excited about, I think - the new strategic game with its resource management hooked into but still distinct from the platforming action game.

I'm also excited to be done with RPG style grinding for a while and to get back to old school Metroidvanianing. Either way, long live AVWW1, and may AVWW2 be just as unique - if a little easier to wrangle on the design end!


Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Thanks, all!  And welcome back to some folks I haven't seen in a while. :)  To the questions:

So when we do kill the overlord, that's it? All done, pack your bags, move on to the next campaign? You said that you can continue but why would you if the overlord was dead?  :-\ 

If you're feeling completionist, you can still move around in a sandbox mode sort of way, but there's no point to it after that point.  Same as AI War, a lot of strategy games, or games like Rebuild 2, etc.  Your phrasing makes it sound really negative, but you could say that about basically any non-sandboxed game.  "When I beat Final Fantasy, the game just ends?"  "When Super Metroid is over, I just don't get to play anymore unless I want to start over?"  Etc.

I don't mean that in a patronizing way, I should stress.  It's just one of those things that seems pretty tied to having a more interesting game arc with a rise and fall -- rather than it being something infinitely open-ended, it's something that has a hopefully satisfying conclusion.  I much prefer the Christopher Nolan Batman series to some of the more open-ended serial-style superhero/spy/etc type of movies that never really seem to go anywhere with the characters or an overall plot.

But that said, we hope the replay value will be there in a really fun way here. :)

I noticed from the front page of your website that the release date for Shattered Haven has changed to December, though with everything you have going on at your studio I can understand. I was going to say you're probably hip deep in AVWW, but considering the new news on AVWW2 it is probably more like chin deep in work.

Yep, we haven't announced it yet, but we're planning on releasing Shattered Haven about a month later than we originally had.  We're still progressing on that as well as Valley 2, but Valley 2 is taking more of my time in particular than anticipated.

In summary:

-Faster Speed makes things more interesting
-Greater variety of attacks, plus more shots per salvo rewards maneuvering skill
-Bosses can be made or broken by the terrain, so it might be worth considering having larger bosses be able to pass through walls and such (this also prevents larger bosses becoming stuck, as well as making any boss work just as well in any map)
-Larger Enemies not doing contact damage can add some interesting elements (already in AVWW with Urban Crawlers, of course it would depend on the enemy. Some would make sense to have a melee attack)

Yep, those are a lot of good points!  In terms of the terrain, we're going to be controlling boss rooms a heck of a lot more and making those much more fitting.  Also, as with cave story or the megaman games, the bosses won't be so large!  This should help make them a lot more interesting in terms of what we can do with them in a reasonably enclosed space where you can't just run away forever.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline madcow

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,153
How did I not see this thread or the blog post earlier.  :o

This looks awesome, like how the AVWW I always wanted.

Let me see if I understand the class system right, each class gets 4 spells and you can mix and match all the active spells you have however you please?  The classes you get at higher levels won't be so much better as to obsolete the original ones will they?

Also, how are you even able to do this, shattered haven, Ancient Shadows, and still keep up with forums at the same time!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Let me see if I understand the class system right, each class gets 4 spells and you can mix and match all the active spells you have however you please?  The classes you get at higher levels won't be so much better as to obsolete the original ones will they?

Classes each have four spells that are assigned to them, and you get to choose a single class -- no mixing and matching.  New classes at higher tiers have more powerful spells that make the lower-tier classes obsolete.  So you'll be completely changing classes at 4 points throughout one campaign (and you have the option of doing that more often if you want, to tackle certain situations with specific spell groups).

That keeps the decisions simple and fast, as well as making it so that we can design a variety of classes with really distinct feels to them.  When people can mix and match, things tend to trend towards the middle as they pick just exactly their favorite stuff rather than experimenting with various combinations more.

Also, how are you even able to do this, shattered haven, Ancient Shadows, and still keep up with forums at the same time!

Well, we did have to push back Shattered Haven by a month, and we've brought on another part-timer to work on level design for that game, too.  And we're getting some help on the slice design for Valley 2, also.  And beyond that... we just work really fast! :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline madcow

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,153
Ooh, is the guy who by now has done over half AVWW's rooms (the name totally slips my mind) working on the slice bits?

I was starting to think there was a more sinister reason Keith gets so happy about the AI's victories.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Ooh, is the guy who by now has done over half AVWW's rooms (the name totally slips my mind) working on the slice bits?

Unfortunately not.

I was starting to think there was a more sinister reason Keith gets so happy about the AI's victories.

Hahahaha. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
No, keith said a bit ago in the thread that they were trying to contact BenMiff.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
I have been thinking about this more, and it seems that LESS granularity seems to be a design theme when comparing the design goals and ideas of this game (so far, it's still in private alpha after all) compared to AVWW1

A less granular room generator means that more attention and care can be made to each "slice", and you can categorize each slice better. (Plus, make it less likely the generator will make "ugly" looking rooms)
A less granular customization system (discrete classes) means that more attention and care can be made to the sets of possible spell combinations and how they would impact gameplay (as you would only have a controlled subset of them at any given time)
A less "granular"* mission system (aka, explicit overarching goals, win/loss conditions, reduced emphasis on wide-open sandbox free roaming) means you can put more time and attention towards motavating players to do stuff, guiding players, giving a sense of progression without having to worry about whether it would scale upwards arbitrarily high.

*not quite the right word for this case, but it still fits the overall theme that seems to be going on


It sounds like you are beginning to realize what "less is more" can do for design. :)
It is worth noting that "less granular" does NOT mean less deep. However, it does mean that since each aspect has less possible "states", you can afford to put more attention to how those different aspects interact, and can afford to add in more aspects (like a more involved "city management" system and macro "time/turn based" world change system).
Certainly, the loss of "uber-fine" customization and "uber-huge" possibility space will be missed, but I think the fun factor gained by making it reasonable to tie things together in a more focused fashion will be worth it.
Am I getting any of this right, or am I completely misunderstanding it?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 11:22:01 am by TechSY730 »

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Yep, that's pretty much it.

And it's not that we didn't know the value of "less is more" previously, it's that we wanted to see if we could push the boundaries of what "more is more" can do.  We did, and I've had enough of that. ;)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Yep, that's pretty much it.

Wow, first try to. ;)

Quote
And it's not that we didn't know the value of "less is more" previously, it's that we wanted to see if we could push the boundaries of what "more is more" can do.  We did, and I've had enough of that. ;)

I phrased that sentence wrong. The way I stated it before seemed like I thought you didn't know what it could do before, which I know you did. I was trying to say that this set of design goals seems to make this a more central guiding principle than it was for AVWW1.

BTW, I sill think that AVWW1 is a good game. Maybe not what it takes to be an AI War level classic in my mind, but still very well worth the 10 bucks I spent on it (actually, much more than the 10 bucks spent on it, both because of how much the game offers, and because I bought game during the beta phase and thus got the discount for it ;)).

Offline mrhanman

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
Wow!  I fast from the internet for a weekend (playing Borderlands 2 doesn't count), and I miss this bombshell.  :o  I'm happy to know that my Prediction of a Sequel* was correct!  There's a serious dearth of information in the OP.  I'm pretty sure there is a lot more you could tell us.  ;)

So, is there going to be a separate forum for AVWW2, or will they remain unified?

*No evidence of this prediction exists

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
BTW, I sill think that AVWW1 is a good game. Maybe not what it takes to be an AI War level classic in my mind, but still very well worth the 10 bucks I spent on it (actually, much more than the 10 bucks spent on it, both because of how much the game offers, and because I bought game during the beta phase and thus got the discount for it ;)).

Cheers!

And yeah, I still have an immense fondness for AVWW1, too.  That's part of why I didn't want to destroy it by turning it into something else; what was built there is unique.  But I also have a very distinct sense with that design of having "written myself into a corner" so to speak, and there are a lot of things I wanted to do differently that I could not in that context without fundamentally altering it.  So now we're keeping our cake and eating it too. ;)

So, is there going to be a separate forum for AVWW2, or will they remain unified?

For now, unified; but it really depends on how much ongoing discussion remains around AVWW1 as Valley2 takes over the helm.  I suspect that it's better just to leave them together, but we'll see.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Incidentally, we went our of our way to reduce confusion points between the two games with things that are named the same but work differently.  Hence you have henchmen instead of lieutenants, and so on.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Gemzo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
I doubt I am the only one who wonders this: Will you be releasing some sort of mapmaking program for slices? And if so, how soon?