Author Topic: A Valley Without Wind 2 - a full sequel free for existing customers - is coming.  (Read 88445 times)

Offline LaughingThesaurus

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,723
I have a question actually.
I understand that mouse aiming is a no-no, but can we bind functions to the mouse clicks? I think that should be a possibility, at least for people who are more comfortable with the mouse. Think Terraria. You don't aim your sword swing, but you still click the mouse to swing it.

Offline Giegue

  • Sr. Member Mark II
  • ****
  • Posts: 381
are there still going to be unlockable enemies and such? that was one of the best features of the first one.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Lot's of random comments, as there is a lot of ground to cover...

Interesting observation that having an infinite world, "sandboxness", AND a directed player experience is near impossible to all-together is near impossible to achieve. I'm saddened by the loss of the infinite world, but that will allow the sandbox parts and the directed player experiences be better integrated, as they don't have to cope to an arbitrary large scale.

Another good observation is that giving full customization actually can make each character feel less distinct. I'm guessing that's why your are shifting to an explicit class base system, where not every ability can be learned by every class?

It's interesting that making the room/world generator LESS granular is actually making rooms more interesting. Funny how things work out.

I'm surprised you are making the experience more "AI war like" (procedurally generated, but finite map, with win and loss conditions)

Anyways, this is rather strange for you guys. You always mentioned that you don't like to make major versions a new product line. But for the types of design goal changes you are looking at here, I can see why you are doing it. Also, thanks for making it free for those who already have the "original", and for allowing the original to still be downloaded; this seems to "fix" many of the reasons you have mentioned why you were hesitant to do full fledged, new product line sequels before.


Also, someone needs to make a memorial video for those Ilari stones. Your glowy, floaty, indifferent nature will be missed.  :'(

TBH, this feels much less "groundbreaking" and much more "traditional" than AVWW1, but I guess that is because the "traditional" metroidvania systems are there for a reason, they work well.
Still, I am interested in seeing what sort of "twists" you are going to be putting on it. Good to see the random generation still around, as that in my mind is what makes AVWW worth mentioning compared to other Indie metroidvanias. :)

Offline KDR_11k

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 904
Youre designing a complete standalone(ish) sequel to avww.. how exactly have you managed to keep this quiet?

This is Arcen we're talking about, they could just have decided to do this a day or two before posting and have it done by next Wednesday.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Sorry for typos, writing from phone.

Agreed with Keith on commenters -- it seems like recreational spite, not stupidity, to me.

Regarding binding functions to mouse clicks, technically that's still supported; I don't see a reason to take that out, as it doesn't affect balance at all. I don't hate the mouse or something, but the precision aiming just isn't a good thing for this kind of game. So clicks themselves are fine.

Regarding the unlockables system from the first one, in a direct sense that has gone away. But in an indirect sense that's partly what the macrogame is all about. You're encountering stuff based around what choices you make on the world map. The overlord also will still be getting randomized elite unlocks at various points in your quest, although probably not very many at first beta.

Regarding the loss of the infinite world, that's one of the things that makes me happiest, personally. It was interesting to experiment with that, but its safe to say I never plan to do another infinite world if I can avoid it. There's just no way to make a proper satisfying game arc. But that's fine for certain games, like minecraft, so maybe if someday we do something less game-like and more freeform. Those can be super fun, too, and honestly that was part of the appeal of the first avww. But that just got in the way of it actually being a proper game with exciting conflict.

It is definitely strange for us to be making a sequel. That's something I said I never wanted to do. I prefer expansions since then you get to keep all your old content. But what do you do when the original game needs to change into basically a whole new game? In our case, the free sequel oddly turned out to be the way to let you keep the old content and get the new. I didn't see that coming. :)

In terms of groundbreaking vs traditional, sure I would agree the original was more groundbreaking. But I think that he sequel better executes on much of the ground the was broken with the first. Mario 1 was more groundbreaking than Mario 3, but Mario 3 is a much better and more fun game. Not that this makes he first game bad, it's just not remotely as much fun by comparison. And yet still people play both games, so that's great.

I've been going out of my way with the enemy and spell designs to make sure that there is not too much overlap between the two games. That way even if you play a ton of valley2, you can still return to avww1 and have a fresh fun time because its so different.

In terms of being more traditional in the design, I don't think I agree with that though.  From a technical sense the procedural generation is less impressive in the sequel (it was insanely complex and quite a technical achievement for he first), but it is more effectively used in the sequel.  In a lot of respects, the sequel leans more on design whereas the first leaned more on technology, if that makes sense.  In terms of design the only thing remotely close to valley2 is actraiser, but that game really is just a very rough inspiration because it -- while very fun for one playthrough years ago -- was ultimately too simplistic to have staying power. We're trying to hit a better balance on that score, and I think that will put us at a pretty unique juncture. Depends on what you mean by groundbreaking, but I don't think here will be any other games like avww1 or valley2 -- not even each other.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 06:28:30 pm by x4000 »
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
A random question and a probably-too-early question:
Are any of the indoor area inspired by BenMiff?

Is Valley2 going to have the same list of people at the end of the credits or will it have a seperate list?

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
A random question and a probably-too-early question:
Are any of the indoor area inspired by BenMiff?
We've been trying to get ahold of him, actually.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
And most likely Valley 2 will include everyone from Valley 1, but then also grow to include new people.  The people who helped shape Valley 1 also helped shape the sequel in a major way.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Coppermantis

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,212
  • Avenger? I hardly know 'er!
Very awesome. I expected something big, but this has defied my expectations entirely. As to whether or not it will be superior to AVWW1, we'll see, but it sounds for the most part like it will. Looking forward to it.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline Bluddy

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
Very happy to hear this. I have high hopes for AVWW2.

Offline Knightlord64

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 11
So although you aren't supposed to be actively killing the henchmen and overlord, will there be any advantages to doing so? AVWW 2 sounds like a awesome game so far and I hope it gets a big reception.

Offline Penumbra

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 464
It would be amazing if there was a way, for example, to identify internally that a particular slice was gated by x ability, or y and z abilities; and then not use those slices in the generation until that feat had been unlocked. If the feats and slices were designed just right, you could still retain a heavily procedural/random makeup of the world, but one which gates everything in such a way that you genuinely feel like you're becoming more powerful each game. And if the feats list was sufficiently large (or the number of them unlocked per game sufficiently restricted) then you could even retain the sense of discovery past the first game - as each game you'll unlock a different combination, in a different order.

Whoa!  That's actually a really amazing idea -- that would totally be something we could do.  It's easy enough, logically, and it's also something that we could do as a form of gating on level-up towers beyond a certain point.  "You don't have double-jump yet?  Then you can't make it up this tower," etc.  That's... really exciting, actually!

This is a really good idea. I would suggest having two categories, one for a true gate, and another for a bonus. Like in Metroid, where you walk past a missile upgrade several times, seeing that you need double jump to get it. Then, when you eventually get your upgrade, you can go back.

Seeding bonuses that require X inside the non-required regions will build up excitement!

Offline Panopticon

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 274
I think including that idea would really nail down the Metroidvania feel you are going for in the world exploration.

Seeing this kind of interaction between the community and the developers is always amazing, and I don't think anyplace captures that better than these forums.

Also, I see where you are coming from with the thoughts on recreational abuse, Keith. My personal stance on that sort of thing is that idiocy isn't necessarily related to intellectual capacity. There can be idiocy in just about any kind of human activity or interaction. In my view recreational abuse is close to the top of the list in idiotic behavior. ;)

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Hmm, I'd been wondering myself just what types of comments and whatnot were going to show up on Reddit or whereever....

And I agree with the idea that they're REALLY best ignored.  Places like that and Youtube.... bastions of pointless negativity.  I try to ignore those places, lest I lose IQ points from reading them.

And all that hate from those guys, when alot of the actual indie sites with actual reviewers seemed to LIKE AVWW..... I'd rather wait and see what they have to say about it.   I'm interested to see what they think.  In particular I wanna see what Indie Game Blog says about it.  Particularly with the game having "real" art this time around.... I remember the first time on that site, the actual reviewer was like "ZOMG HOLY CRAP AWESOME", but comments on the article were pretty much entirely "Bad art, not going to try it, blargh".   Thinking that wont be the case this time.  The art looks like it's shaping up pretty darn well.


Also, the thing with the enemy levels or whatever you want to call them sounds interesting, particularly the bit about them going into parts of the world map from evil towers or whatever.  And the idea of an overall castle/tower/evil place that you repeatedly go into over the course of the game.... that reminds me alot of the Focus Tower from Final Fantasy Mystic Quest.  Another idea I definitely like.


And another question for you, these "slices" or whatever you want to call them, are they going to be editable and such like the building interiors in the first game?  That'd be pretty neat, and if so I'll probably actually contribute this time myself.   Though the main reason I didn't with the first one was that the editor was so unwieldy, making big rooms was kind of a chore, and I ended up not doing any.

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
This addon fixed youtube comments for me. It's pretty much exactly what they needed.